Preamble

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions — SHIPPING

Claims (Shipowners' Liability)

Mr. Knox Cunningham: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, in view of the present value of money, he will consider introducing legislation to amend Section 503 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, in order to increase the amount of £15 for each ton in respect of loss of life or personal injury either alone or together with loss or damage to property, and to increase the amount to be applied exclusively to loss of life or personal injuries in cases of limitation of liability by shipowners.

The Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): I agree that the limits of liability laid down in Section 503 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, need to be reconsidered. But, before introducing fresh legislation, it would clearly be desirable to await the outcome of the consideration which Her Majesty's Government and other Governments are giving to the Convention on the subject of shipowners' liability which was drafted by the International Maritime Committee at its meeting in September last.

Mr. Knox Cunningham: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask him to bear in mind that, under the present law, if a widow and children have a valid claim for, say, £3,000 that may be scaled down to about £200 or £300? Will he also consider whether it really is desirable in cases of loss of life or personal injury to have any limitation of liability?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It has been an international practice for a very long

time to have some limitation of liability, but I agree with my hon. Friend that, among other things, the change in the value of money since 1894 makes it desirable to reconsider these figures. If we can, I think we should move with other countries.

Flag Discrimination

Mr. J. R. H. Hutchison: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what current representations are being made to foreign countries who are following a policy of flag discrimination.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Her Majesty's Government continue to press by every means for freedom for our shipping to engage in trade in free and fair competition, but it would not be in the public interest to give particular cases which are the subject of current representations.

Mr. Hutchison: In view of the damaging effect which flag discrimination has on British shipping, one of our most important invisible exports, will my right hon. Friend take a tough line with the many nations seeking increasingly to damage our shipping in this way, contrary, as I understand it, to the spirit of G.A.T.T.?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I fully agree with my hon. Friend that this is a most serious matter for our shipping, and, as this and previous Answers have indicated, the Government take it very seriously and are doing their best to check it.

Mr. Bence: Is the Minister aware that quite recently the President of the Clyde Shipowners' Association made a statement to the effect that the British percentage of the world total of dry cargo shipping has fallen considerably, and that this may have very serious consequences?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Any matter affecting the availabilty of tonnage is important, and I agree with the hon. Gentleman that flag discrimination can affect it.

Oil Pollution

Mr. Awbery: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is aware of the suffering caused to sea birds from contamination with floating oil from ships in collision or ejected by vessels; and what progress has been made towards international agreement on the installation of separators in order to prevent


much of this pollution of the sea and the contamination of sea gulls.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Yes, Sir. The Convention of 1954, which has been accepted by Her Majesty's Government and signed, subject to ratification, by 19 other countries, does not specifically deal with the installation of separators, but the conference at which the Convention was drawn up passed a resolution that Governments should encourage the development of separators and their installation in ships. So far as the United Kingdom ships are concerned, the Oil in Navigable Waters Act, 1955, authorises the making of regulations requiring the fitting of separators.

Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that as the result of a collision between two oil-burning and oil-carrying vessels at the eastern end of the Bristol Channel quite recently, the beaches were covered with oil? Is he further aware that the only way to remove the oil is by means of flame-throwers? As this is going to spoil the tourist trade in this part of the country, will he consider making the removal of the oil a national responsibility rather than a local one?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am aware of the incident to which the hon. Gentleman refers, in which two oil-carrying ships were in collision. I do not think that the fitting of separators has any real bearing on the consequences of accidents of this sort, with which it is almost impossible to deal by means of legislation.

Mr. Stokes: Leaving aside the question of accidents, with which I agree separators will not deal, is it not possible to insist on all shipping coming into our ports within a reasonable time having separators fitted? All our beaches are still being ruined, although I agree to a lesser degree now than was the case earlier, but if the right hon. Gentleman tries surf-riding off the Cornish beaches, he will find his chest covered with oil.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The right hon. Gentleman will be aware, as I said in my Answer, that we took power in the Act passed at the end of the last Parliament to require the installation of separators, and my noble Friend the Paymaster-General in another place gave a broad outline of how it was intended to use that power.

Oral Answers to Questions — TRANSPORT

Railways, Roads and Canals (Expenditure)

Major Wall: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the approximate amount of public money spent on the railways, the roads and the canals, respectively, of the United Kingdom from 1900 to 1914, from 1919 to 1939 and from 1946 to date.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The expenditure out of central Government funds on railways and canals has been confined to assistance schemes and is negligible in amount. No expenditure on roads was made directly out of central funds prior to 1910. Since that date the expenditure from that source has been—prior to 1914, £1·3 million; 1919–39, £298 million; 1946–55, £251 million.

Major Wall: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the comparative figures for expenditure upon roads and canals show that the canals have been neglected for very many years; further, would not he agree that if the neglect of these past years is made good these canals will fulfil a vital and important part in the economic life of the nation?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I would not agree that figures, which I have not given, in fact, for canals, gave my hon. and gallant Friend that impression; but, of course, it is the fact that at the moment considerable expenditure is contemplated on a certain limited part of our canal system which is believed to be of real commercial value.

Mr. Ede: Is there any hope that canals other than those put in the first class by the recent Board of Survey may receive the attention and favourable consideration of the right hon. Gentleman?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Yes, indeed. It is essential that we should work out plans and procedures for dealing with all the different categories of canals which do cause a very complex and difficult problem.

Mr. Hirst: Does not my right hon. Friend feel that a successful solution of the canal problem can hardly be found until canals are divorced from the British Transport Commission?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I would not accept that, not least because the British Transport Commission is in fact going forward with schemes for the improvement of some 300 miles of its system, and I should have thought that it would be a pity to interfere with the considerable amount of work which it is going to undertake on them.

Mr. Ernest Davies: Can the Minister say when he will be able to make a statement to the House on Government policy about canals? Will he refrain from appointing a further committee but enable the policy to be formulated now and acted upon, instead of delaying, as rumour has it he intends to?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Gentleman will not expect me to comment on rumours.

Windscreen Pennants

Mr. Gresham Cooke: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is aware of the growing and dangerous practice of affixing holiday pennants to the front and rear windows of motor cars; whether he is satisfied that Section 75 of the Construction and Use Regulations is so drafted as to make this practice illegal by reason of such pennants obstructing the view of the driver; and whether he will introduce fresh regulations to bar the practice specifically.

Sir F. Medlicott: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will now introduce fresh regulations which will definitely prohibit the affixing of holiday pennants to the windows of motor vehicles.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I cannot at present add to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Black) on 2nd November.

Mr. Gresham Cooke: Has not my right hon. Friend during the holiday season seen these cars with their front and rear windows plastered with pennants so that the drivers cannot see? Do the police know what powers they have under the law to deal with this matter, and does my right hon. Friend think the law is really strong enough to curb this manifestation of the souvenir spirit?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: There are powers under existing regulations to deal with the case when the windscreen is seriously obscured. The difficulty about strengthening the law—and I agree that consideration needs to be given to that—is that one has to take care of a number of perfectly legitimate things which are sometimes put on the windscreens of cars, including, of course, the badge of the House of Commons Motoring Club.

Sir F. Medlicott: Is it not clear that people who place this kind of obstruction in front of their vision at the risk of their own lives and the lives of other people are so foolish that they ought not to be on the roads at all? Will not my right hon. Friend on this occasion show a little righteous anger and take some prompt action?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I agree with my hon. Friend that it is an extraordinarily foolish thing seriously to obscure one's vision in a car by adding these things to the windows. As I have said, the present law can certainly take care of the grosser cases. What I am concerned to do is to make sure that any strengthening of the law is sensible and does not cause any of the anomalies at which I hinted in my answer.

Mr. G. R. Strauss: Does the Minister not think that the obscuring of the rear window may be even more important and dangerous than the obscuring of the front window, and will he consider—before the Road Traffic Bill is disposed of in Committee upstairs—the possibility of drafting a Clause which might possibly deal with this very serious danger?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I will certainly consider that. This is a matter which has, so far, been dealt with by regulation, but I have an open mind as to the best method of dealing with it.

Road Haulage Assets (Disposal)

Mr. Ernest Davies: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will now give his revised estimate of the anticipated loss on disposal of road haulage vehicles and the date of termination of the transport levy.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have nothing to add to the reply I gave the hon. Member on 2nd November.

Mr. Davies: When will the Minister be in a position to make a statement on the revised estimate of the losses made on the sale of road haulage vehicles in view of the fact that the Government have been forced to change their policy in this respect? Are not the House and the country entitled to know the cost of the wrecking transport policy of the Government?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I think that the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary indicates how far he is from the realities of the position.

Mr. Davies: Does the Minister mean to say that there is no loss as a consequence of this? Is it not a fact that the Government's policy has resulted in a loss which, at one time, the right hon. Gentleman estimated to be £21 million, and that, in view of the change of policy, it will not be as much as that, and could be even less if the Government stopped further sales?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I do not see how that arises out of a Question asking when I am going to make a statement on the levy?

Mr. G. R. Strauss: Why is the Minister so reluctant to give the House his present estimate of the loss that will fall upon the community as a result of the revision of this policy? Surely, it is only a matter of calculation? Why cannot the right hon. Gentleman give it to the House?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I really do not accept the right hon. Gentleman's imputation about losses on the community. A statement will be made on the levy—which was approved by Parliament some years ago—at an appropriate time.

A Licences

Mr. Ernest Davies: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many A special licences have been revoked under Section 9 (4) of the Transport Act, 1953.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: None, Sir.

Mr. Davies: is that not rather surprising in view of the fact that these special A licences are granted to operators who indicate that they will operate from the same places as previously and serve substantially the same areas? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in a very

large number of cases, these vehicles have been removed from those places to other parts of the country after receiving special A licences, and yet no action has been taken against them? Why has no action been taken in those cases?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Gentleman, I think, asked a Question last week with respect to refusals of applications for special A licences on the ground of moving from the district, and I gave him the answer, which was 106. His present Question relates to revocation, and I am glad to say that it has not been necessary to revoke.

Vehicles (Mud Flaps)

Mr. R. Bell: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will, through the Highway Code and otherwise, actively encourage the use, especially on heavy vehicles, of plastic or fabric flaps hanging from the back of the rear mudguards to reduce windscreen splashing from wet roads.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Except for certain special categories motor vehicles are required by regulation to fit wings or other similar fittings to catch as far as practicable the mud or water thrown up by the wheels. Where mud flaps would result in any reduction of splashing I should welcome their use, but the Highway Code is not concerned with advice on vehicle design and I do not think that a reference in the Code to this matter would be appropriate.

Mr. Bell: My right hon. Friend will see from my Question that I said "through the Highway Code and otherwise." Would he consider whether there is any other way in which he could encourage the use of these extremely valuable flaps?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I hope that, among other things, my hon. Friend's Question and the Answer may help in that direction.

Vehicle Bumpers (Standardisation)

Mr. E. Johnson: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will add a regulation to the Road Vehicles Construction and Use Regulations under which it shall be compulsory for all bumpers of passenger cars to be the same height from the ground.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No, Sir. The Final Report of the Committee on Road Safety, issued in 1947, did not recommend compulsory standardisation of bumper heights, even for private cars. The motor industry is aware of the advantages of standardisation where possible, and a standard specification for the guidance of manufacturers exists. I am reluctant to add to the existing volume of statutory regulations unless the case for so doing, on safety or other grounds, is strong and demonstrable.

Mr. Johnson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, as we are rapidly approaching a position where motorists have to drive bumper to bumper, the damage done in minor accidents would be greatly reduced, and consequently a lot of time and money would be saved, if bumpers were the same height?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As I said, the motor industry is aware of the desirability of using the same height, but we ought to hesitate before adding further prohibitions with criminal penalties in this matter.

Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Why is the Minister so reluctant to have equality in bumping? Cannot we have equality in this as in so many other respects?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Both on bumping and on boring I would prefer not to make any comment.

Motorists, London (Regulations and Byelaws)

Mr. Remnant: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will publish a booklet listing with appropriate information the Acts, regulations and bye-laws affecting motorists in the Metropolitan Area.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Though I have a great deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend's suggestion, so many of the orders concerned are so purely local in their effect that I doubt whether such a booklet as he proposes would meet any real demand. It would also soon be out of date.

Mr. Remnant: Will my right hon. Friend consider an alternative to London motorists having to learn the hard way, which seems to be a waste of time and money for the motorists, the police and the courts? If one were tempted, after

being reported, to give the Parliamentary answer that "I want notice of that question," it would not be very acceptable to the officer on the beat; but how is the motorist to learn?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I agree with my hon. Friend's final conclusion. I think that the best way to keep and to be aware of purely local orders is by paying close attention to the signs which indicate them. On the broader issue, as I have said, I have a great deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend's proposal.

Mr. G. Thomas: If the Minister is to consider such a booklet as this, would he insert in it a notice to motorists to keep away from drink while on the roads?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I think that is already very adequately done in the Highway Code.

Nationalised Industries (Chairmen and Vice-Chairmen)

Mr. Lewis: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation his policy with regard to the basis on which chairmen and vice-chairmen of nationalised industries under his control are required to serve, as far as employment in a full-time or part-time engagement is concerned; and upon what basis the salaries are assessed.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The chairmen of the nationalised industries for which I am responsible are appointed full-time. The appointment of a full-time or part-time deputy-chairman depends on the needs of the situation. The salaries are fixed in accordance with Government policy for the remuneration of members of public boards and take account of the responsibilities of the particular post and whether it is whole-time or part-time.

Mr. Lewis: Is it not a fact that both the Chairman and the Vice-Chairman of B.O.A.C. are on a part-time basis, and that as the Vice-Chairman is a director of many other concerns he obviously can give virtually no time at all to the Corporation? If the Chairman is to give undoubtedly good advice, help and assistance to a private concern, this great organisation must inevitably suffer.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In answer to the earlier part of the Question, it is simply not the case that the Chairman is, or will


be, on a part-time basis. As regards the Deputy-Chairman, hon. Members will be aware that, under its constitution, two Deputy-Chairmanships are provided for B.O.A.C. That this Deputy-Chairman is on a part-time basis follows the precedent which has been followed without criticism since a similar appointment was made in B.E.A. in 1947.

Motor Vehicles (Increase)

Mr. Grimond: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation his estimate of the increase in road vehicles in any convenient period ahead, such as three or five years.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: On the basis of the current rate of growth, I estimate that the increase over the next three years in the number of motor vehicles will be rather more than one and one half million, including motor-cycles and motor-assisted pedal cycles.

Mr. Grimond: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that that great increase in the number of vehicles, including motor-cycles and motor-assisted pedal cycles, will create a very serious situation? Already in some towns the traffic is almost solid, and if another one and a half million vehicles are to be put on the roads the traffic may not be able to move at all. Has he considered whether the current road programme will deal with that estimated traffic situation, or will restrictions be necessary?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I hope that restrictions will not be necessary, but I agree with the hon. Member that this does indicate the enormous importance of the road programme.

Oral Answers to Questions — ROADS

East Keal (Accidents)

Commander Maitland: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many road accidents have taken place during the last six months at the corner in East Keal, Lincolnshire; how many of these have been fatal; and what action is proposed to make this road safer.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Four, Sir, of which two were fatal. I am arranging for the erection of reflector posts, the extension of the existing solid white line in

both directions and the provision of road junction signs. These additional measures should indicate clearly the need for care at this right-angled bend.

Commander Maitland: In view of the serious number of accidents which have occurred at this place, will my right hon. Friend take special steps to watch this part of the road, and also to see what can be done generally to improve the road system in its vicinity?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: My divisional road engineer has already arranged to keep a careful watch on the effect of the accident record on this road of the steps taken to see if they are sufficient or whether further steps are necessary.

Snow Clearance

Mr. Dodds: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, in view of the experience last winter in the use of obsolete methods in dealing with snow and ice on main roads, what action he has taken to ensure that modern heavy equipment will be available this winter so as to avoid unnecessarily long and costly traffic hold-ups.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I do not accept that obsolete methods were used. But I agree that there is need for more equipment, and it is being provided.

Mr. Dodds: Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether efforts are being made to persuade owners to have snow fences built in appropriate places on the main roads as an insurance against unnecessary and costly hold-ups?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I should like notice of the position with respect to owners of adjoining property. The hon. Gentleman will recall that his Question dealt with apparatus.

Latchingdon—Bradwell-on-Sea (Public Works)

Mr. B. Harrison: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will consult the highway authority concerned about ways to improve the road between Latchingdon and Bradwell-on-Sea in view of the large-scale public works planned at Bradwell-juxta-Mare.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I shall be glad to give advice if I am asked, but this is


primarily a matter for the highway authority and the British Electricity Authority.

Mr. Harrison: Will my right hon. Friend take some active steps on this problem, because it is going to be a great problem unless it is dealt with before the construction starts?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As my hon. Friend knows, this, being a Class 3 road, is a matter for negotiation between the highway authority or the county council and the British Electricity Authority. I do not think I can really step in, unless the highway authority asks me to do so, in negotiations which are primarily their responsibility.

North Circular Road (A40 Fly-Over)

Mr. R. Bell: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what he estimates would be the cost of a fly-over crossing with interconnections at the intersection of A40 and the North Circular Road.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: About £600,000.

Mr. Bell: Would my right hon. Friend agree that this money would be saved in a year or two by the saving of time of the traffic using this road? Is it not a fact that the configuration of the ground is particularly suitable for a fly-over crossing and that the traffic blocks every rush-hour on every day are simply enormous?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I agree with what my hon. Friend says, which is at any rate part of the reason why I put it into the programme for the next three years which I announced on 2nd February.

Speed Limits

Mr. Janner: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, in view of the large number of anomalies which now exist in connection with speed limits on the roads and the fact that the limits laid down in 1934 have, in many cases, become unrealistic in view of the technical development in connection with the design of motor vehicles, he will at an early date review the lists of limits with a view to introducing a comprehensive amending regulation.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have recently asked the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee to review speed limits in the London area and specifically to recommend whether or not higher speed limits should be imposed on particular roads. Certain other aspects of speed limits are dealt with in the Road Traffic Bill and in the Motor Vehicles (Variation of Speed Limit) Regulations, 1955, now before Parliament. I have nothing to add at present on this subject generally.

Mr. Janner: Does the Minister not agree that after 21 years, with the experience that has been acquired during that period, it is time to have a proper revision of the regulations?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It is partly for that reason that the various forms of action which I have indicated in my Answer, which perhaps the hon. Member will study, have been taken.

Mr. Ernest Davies: Can the Minister give any indication when the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee is likely to report on this matter?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I cannot give a date, but I hope it may not be long.

Markyate By-Pass

Viscountess Davidson: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the present position with respect to the Markyate by-pass; and when he anticipates that constructional work will begin.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Contractors have been chosen and I expect them to begin work within the next fortnight.

Viscountess Davidson: May I thank my right hon. Friend? The inhabitants of Markyate and those who use the road to and from the North will be very thankful for that Answer.

Mill Bridge, Woodhouse

Mr. P. Roberts: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation why the obstruction has been unnecessarily prolonged on the Sheffield-to-Worksop Road at Mill Bridge, Woodhouse; and whether he will take steps to restore the free passage of this road for the benefit of the public.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Work on this bridge should finish next month. It has


been open to traffic on a one-way basis during reconstruction, which I do not think has been prolonged.

Mr. Roberts: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the obstruction has been there for a year now and that a considerable number of people have been inconvenienced for considerable periods each day? Can he say what period of licence was given to the contractors when the work first started to continue the obstruction?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The work started in November of last year, and it has taken longer than it would otherwise have done because of the necessity to keep one half of the bridge open to traffic during the work. I should like notice with regard to the Statutory Instrument about the diversion of traffic, but I imagine that it was coincident with the period of the work.

London Squares (Underground Parking)

Mr. K. Robinson: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will consider the construction of underground car parks in Soho Square, Golden Square and other London squares where the damage to amenity would be negligible.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have received no such proposal either from the local authority responsible for provision of car parking facilities or from private enterprise. If one is referred to me, I will gladly examine it.

Captain Pilkington: Does not my right hon. Friend think there are further possibilities with underground parking in London in view of the difficulties at the present time?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Certainly; I think underground parking can be a considerable contribution, both in London and in other cities.

Mr. Robinson: Will the Minister confirm that he will not be deterred by purely financial considerations?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I should like a lot of notice of that.

Great Portland Street (One-Way Working)

Mr. K. Robinson: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is satisfied with the results of the experimental one-way system in Great Portland Street; and if he will make the scheme permanent.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: One-way working has improved traffic conditions here, but there have been several objections from frontagers and others. Before the system is made permanent, with or without variations, I shall have to consult the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee.

Mr. Robinson: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman not to be deterred by vested interests and people living in Portland Place from making this admirable scheme permanent? At the same time, will he consider improving it still further by restricting parking in Devonshire Street and Mortimer Street, between Great Portland Street and Portland Place?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I feel bound to pay some attention to those who live in the localities affected by the order or who trade there. As far as the second part of the Question is concerned, I have really nothing to add to my original answer.

Traffic Congestion, Leyton

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what is the most recent survey and report he has in respect of traffic on main roads through the borough of Leyton; and, in view of this, what long-term plans have been considered in order effectually to deal with the probable increase in the volume of traffic during the next 20 years.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The most recent information about traffic on main roads in Leyton is that given by the 1954 traffic census. Apart from local schemes, the principal proposal for the relief of traffic congestion in this area is the Eastern Avenue extension.

Mr. Sorensen: Is the Minister aware that almost every month the traffic problem in Leyton increases, and, with the heavy loads on the surface, is becoming


increasingly dangerous? In particular, is he aware that part of High Road, Leytonstone, has become a bottleneck, causing more danger and inconvenience to all concerned? Under these circumstances, does he not think it would be well to have a review of the possibilities of the next 20 years?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the traffic problems in Leyton are very serious. The big scheme to which I made reference, when it is done, will give some relief, but I will certainly bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said.

Pedestrian Crossings (Accidents)

Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many people were killed or seriously injured on zebra crossings during the quarter ended 30th September last.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Twenty-three and 188.

Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Will the Minister take note of the fact that the figures which he has just given represent a considerable increase on those for the corresponding quarter of last year, when 13 people were killed and 174 seriously injured? When does he expect—if he does not find the task too boring for him—to achieve the desired result, by means of zebra crossings, of reducing the number of people killed and seriously injured?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the total casualties on zebra crossings has increased, but in the light of the considerably greater use being made of them, I think that is no indication that the zebra crossing is other than a very useful assistance to road safety.

King's Lynn—Norwich (Improvements)

Mr. Dye: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what further improvements he intends to make to the trunk road A47, between King's Lynn and Norwich, in the forthcoming financial year.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Improvements are now in hand, or will shortly be

authorised, at Constitution Hill railway bridge, Easton cross roads and Scanning cross roads. Further minor improvements will be carried out next year.

Mr. Dye: Is the Minister aware that the trunk road is used by a great number of people who come to Norfolk for the first time, that it is a source of great danger to them and that a large number of accidents take place there every summer?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: There is a good deal of force in that. We are trying to take remedial measures.

Weasenham, Norfolk

Mr. Dye: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will now accede to the request for a grant during 1956–57 for the completion of the new road through Weasenham, Norfolk, by-passing the dangerous corners where several fatal accidents have occurred.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have had no such request.

Expenditure

Mr. Janner: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is aware of the confusion caused amongst local authorities by the circular letter sent to them on 26th October by Her Majesty's Government, in so far as it concerned expenditure on roads; and whether he will issue, at an early date, a clarifying statement indicating precisely what is the policy of the Government with regard to the curtailment, maintenance, or increase of expenditure by local authorities on roads.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I do not think there is any confusion. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made it clear in his Budget speech on 26th October that the road programme is to continue.

Mr. Janner: Am I to understand from that answer that the passage in that circular relating to the road programme does not mean anything at all and that the Chancellor will stand by what he said in the House of Commons before?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have given the hon. Gentleman a definite answer to his


Question. I really cannot be expected to indulge in textual criticism of the circular in question.

Mr. Janner: In view of the very unsatisfactory reply, I propose to raise this matter at the earliest opportunity on the Adjournment.

Pavements, London (Use)

Mr. Russell: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is aware that the pavements in some London streets, especially in the suburbs, are far wider than it necessary for the small numbers of pedestrians who use them; and if he will instruct the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee in consultation with local authorities to inquire into the desirability of widening the carriageway where possible so as to ease traffic congestion.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am asking my divisional road engineer to examine further the possibility of action along these lines with the highway authorities concerned.

Harthill, Lanarkshire

Miss Herbison: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is yet in a position to give a reply to a letter sent to him on 27th September by the Member for North Lanark on the question of de-controlling part of the road at Harthill, Lanarkshire.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I wrote to the hon. Lady on 18th November.

Miss Herbison: Since the contents of that letter are wholly unsatisfactory, and since the local authority and the chief constable were against the derestricting of this road, will the Minister tell the House on whose advice he reached the decision to derestrict it?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The decision was taken on my responsibility, which I fully accept, after very careful consideration of all the views expressed, including, of course, those of the hon. Lady.

Miss Herbison: Would the Minister answer the question and say on whose advice he reached the decision, since it was completely against the advice of all the responsible people and bodies in Lanarkshire?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The decision is taken on my responsibility, and I am not bound to say, and ought not to be pressed to say, on whose advice.

Fly-overs and Under-passes, London

Mr. Grimond: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many fly-overs or fly-unders are planned for London.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In the London County Council development plan provision is made for fly-overs or underpasses at six major intersections. Their inclusion in a number of other London schemes is under consideration. The figures given in this answer relate to the L.C.C. area only, and there are, in addition, a considerable number of fly-overs and fly-unders planned for the approaches to London.

Mr. Grimond: As the fly-overs seem to be one method of speeding-up traffic in London will the Minister again consider the problem at Hammersmith where, it is understood, there is not to be a fly-over and where it seems that traffic congestion will be appalling?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have explained more than once in this House that I share what I know is the hon. Gentleman's view, that it would be desirable to build a fly-over there. I have, however, agreed to postpone it at the request of the London County Council, which prefers to proceed at this stage without it. After all, the London County Council, as partners of the Government in this scheme, must have some consideration given to its views.

Mr. Stokes: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House the difference between a fly-over and an under-pass, and which his Ministry backs?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In view of the great importance of that Question, it ought to be on the Order Paper.

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL AVIATION

Helicopter Landing Stations (River Thames)

Mr. Dodds: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what progress has been made in recent months in


considering suitable sites for helicopter landing stations in London; and what points along the River Thames have been surveyed on behalf of his Department as possible helidromes.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: About twenty riverside sites have been surveyed, and though several of these could be developed as air stations, none can be regarded as altogether satisfactory. My Department is also studying in collaboration with British European Airways the Port of London Authority and the London County Council the possibility of using a floating platform in the Thames. Preliminary trials have been carried out with the assistance of the War Office and six sites for floating platforms in the Thames have been surveyed against the scheme proving workable.

Mr. Dodds: While thanking the Minister for that answer and hoping that his experiments will be successful, may I ask him if he can say whether the experiments from the South Bank site will continue after March even if we do not get any further sites from which to experiment? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a helicopter went over this morning and that the silencer seemed to be working very well compared with the previous noise?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have nothing to add to what I said last week on the question of flights from the South Bank, but I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his tribute to the effective silencing system on the helicopter.

Mr. Nicholson: Does my right hon. Friend accept the word "helidrome" into the English language, and would he accept a raft on the Thames as being a "helisplash"?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: My answer to my hon. Friend is neither, Sir, at any price.

Mr. Rankin: Can the Minister now say when he thinks that he will come to a decision with regard to the service from the South Bank to London Airport?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I cannot say anything about that today.

B.O.A.C. Establishment, Treforest

Mr. Pearson: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is now in a position to answer the request of 29th September, 1955, for a meeting with himself, the British Overseas Airways Corporation and the British European Airways Corporation, and the trade union side of the National Joint Council for Civil Air Transport, regarding the future of the British Overseas Airways Corporation's Engine Overhaul Establishment, Treforest, Glamorgan.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have written to the secretary of the trade union side of the National Joint Council for Civil Air Transport explaining that this is a matter of management which should be discussed within the industry.

Mr. Pearson: Is the Minister aware that there is a widely held opinion that he is not entirely without influence in the situation concerning the future of the Treforest British Overseas Airways base?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The question of where the Airways Corporation overhauls its engines is essentially a matter of management for the Corporation, but the hon. Member will be glad to know that I understand that the B.E.A.C. is inviting the trade union side for a further discussion in the near future.

Anglo-Eireann Agreement (Discussions)

Mr. Watkins: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what progress has been made in the discussions between the British European Airways Corporation and Aer Rianta about amending the Anglo-Eireann Agreement; and whether he will make a statement.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The discussions between B.E.A.C. and Aer Rianta have now been taken to the point where it is possible to consider resumption of inter-Governmental discussions. I am hopeful that further action at Government level will be practicable soon.

Blackbushe Airport (Complaint)

Mr. Janner: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is aware that passengers on the K.L.M.
aeroplane from Amsterdam on 12th October, which was diverted from London to Blackbushe Airport owing to fog, were locked in the aeroplane for 1½ hours after landing and kept waiting in a corridor for a further 1½ hours before being cleared by Customs; and if he will arrange for Customs staff to be readily available for emergencies at Blackbushe Airport during the autumn and winter months.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I very much regret the delay and inconvenience to the passengers in this aircraft caused by the extremely heavy load on the modest facilities at Blackbushe. Since the passenger building was crowded to its capacity when the aircraft arrived, I understand that the operator decided that the passengers would be more comfortable in the aircraft, where they remained for exactly half an hour and not for 1½ hours as stated by the hon. Member.
When the passengers had disembarked a further delay occurred because the unloaders received incorrect information from the crew of the aircraft as to the particular hold in which the baggage had been stored, and consequently the freight was unloaded first. The delay in clearing Customs was due not to shortage of Customs Officers, but to lack of space in the Customs Hall. Normally, Blackbushe deals with about 300 passengers a day: on this occasion the number dealt with was eight times as many.

Mr. Janner: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a similar delay occured on 1st November at Bovingdon Airport, when only one immigration officer was present—[HON. MEMBERS: "Get the facts right."] I want the facts to be correct. [HON. MEMBERS: "The other facts were not correct."]—to deal with 80 passengers from several aircraft that arrived? Does the Minister not think that a proper skeleton staff should be kept at these places so that passengers can be properly dealt with and our reputation in air travel not impaired?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I hope the hon. Member will forgive me if on a supplementary question to a Question about Blackbushe I do not attempt to give him details about Bovingdon. I would, however, add that the provision of immigration staff is a matter not for me but for my right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary.

Mr. G. R. Strauss: Is the Minister satisfied that at these emergency airports there is sufficient staff to deal with an emergency which is likely to arise? While nobody wants to have an inflated and entirely unnecessary staff at these places, it is essential to have a staff there which does not involve a delay of hours on occasions when emergency does arise.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It is very much a question of balance. I think that the right hon. Member would agree that it would be grossly extravagant to provide throughout the year large staffs for airfields that may have a rush on them, owing to weather conditions, only a couple of times a year. It is very much a question of balance.

Airports (Passenger Charges)

Mr. G. Jeger: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is aware of the irritation caused by the imposition and separate collection of the 5s. airport tax; and, in view of the recent resolution of the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe, whether he will now either abolish this tax or take steps to have it included in the fare paid by the passengers.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: There is no such tax. The passenger
service charge of 5s. per passenger is levied on the airlines, and helps to reduce the burden on the taxpayer for the maintenance of passenger facilities at airports. As I have previously told the House, the method by which the airlines reimburse themselves for the charge is for them to decide.

Mr. Jeger: Is the Minister not aware that it is only ourselves and France who levy this tax separately and that it is a constant irritation to travellers, particularly to foreign travellers, who are merely passing through London Airport and who have to go from one desk to another to pay an occasional 5s., sometimes in English currency which they do not happen to possess? Will he not consider this question and do something sensible about it?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Member should appreciate that this is a charge which is levied on the airlines and that the form, if any, in which they collect it from the passengers—for example, the desk method to which the hon. Member referred—is a matter for them and not for me.

Mr. Beswiek: Was it not agreed in the first place that as soon as it was administratively possible, the airlines would include this sum in the price of the ticket? Why has this agreement not be carried out?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I understand that generally speaking the system is working quite satisfactorily—[Horn. MEMBERS: "No."]—with the charge collected, for reasons that the hon. Member will understand, not in the price of the ticket, but at the same time as the ticket—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—with a certain inducement to the airlines—this is as far as I can go—to do it in this manner by way of a grant of rebate.

Mr. Remnant: Will my right hon. Friend appreciate the irritation that is caused not only by this charge but by its method of collection? If a passenger desires to keep within the schedules of currency which he can export he is that much short when charged for himself and his wife at the airport.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I agree that, from the point of view of irritation, the essence is the method of collection, but, as I have already stated, that is a matter over which I have no control.

Mr. Stokes: Has the right hon. Gentleman control over anything?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I wish I had over the right hon. Gentleman.

United Kingdom—U.S.S.R. Services (Discussions)

Mr. Rankin: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will make a statement on the outcome of the discussions which his Department has conducted with the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for the purpose of improving air communications between Great Britain and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: There were two distinct sets of discussions, one between the representatives of Governments, and the other between the representatives of airlines. An agreement was signed between B.E.A. and the Soviet airline Aeroflot on 19th November under which each airline will sell through tickets to any points served on the routes operated by the other airline. B.E.A. are proposing

shortly to extend their Scandinavian services to Helsinki and it will then be possible for passengers to make connections between the B.E.A. and Aeroflot services at Helsinki, Vienna and, possibly, Berlin. The agreement provides for the adjustment of the timetables of the two companies to ensure the most convenient connecting services. The exchange of rights to operate through services between London and Moscow by airlines of the two countries was discussed between Government representatives, but the Soviet authorities are not yet able to contemplate the operation of such services.

Mr. Rankin: Is the Minister aware that these discussions were warmly welcomed and that their outcome will be agreeable to all? Will he remember that Prestwick is nearer to Moscow than is London? Was any consideration given to Prestwick as a port of call on the Moscow-Helsinki-London route? If not, will he tell us why not? Secondly, so far as the Scandinavian proposals are concerned, was any consideration given to Renfrew and Edinburgh as ports of call on that route to London? Again, if not, why not?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: If the hon. Gentleman studies my Answer, which I am afraid was rather long, he will find that these were discussed between B.E.A. and Aeroflot as to the linking up of existing services and, so far as I know, did not go as wide as to consider entirely new services.

Air Commodore Harvey: When did Her Majesty's Government apply for British aircraft to fly through direct to Moscow, and why have they not been given permission to do this?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have nothing to add to my Answer, to the effect that the Soviet authorities are not yet able to contemplate the operation of such services.

Sir Miles Thomas (Directorships)

Mr. Lewis: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (1) what leave of absence has been granted to Sir Miles Thomas, the chairman of British Overseas Airways Corporation, to take up employment with a private business firm; and to what extent his salary as chairman of British Overseas Airways Corporation will be reduced;
(2) if he will make a statement on his decision to allow Sir Miles Thomas, the chairman of British Overseas Airways Corporation to take up part-time employment with a private firm whilst maintaining his present State employment.

Mr. H. Hynd: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation why he authorised the chairman of British Overseas Airways Corporation to take other employment and continue in his present post as a part-time job.

Mr. de Freitas: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will ask the chairman of the British Overseas Airways Corporation to give full-time service to the Corporation.

Mr. Edelman: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what dispensation he gave to Sir Miles Thomas enabling him to become a part-time director of H. Ferguson (Research) Limited, of Coventry.

Mr. Beswick: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, what permission he has given to the chairman and Chief Executive of British Overseas Airways Corporation to accept other appointments with other commercial firms; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The chairman of British Overseas Airways Corporation, like many other members of public boards, is appointed on a full-time basis. This does not preclude, in appropriate cases, permission being given to them to accept membership of other boards, public or private. The essential point is whether such membership may affect the proper discharge of their duties. I was satisfied in the case of Sir Miles Thomas that the small amount of additional work involved in his membership of two outside boards would not in any way affect his discharge of his duties as chairman of B.A.O.C. I therefore gave my consent. In accordance with the established practice in such cases, any fees received by him in respect of these directorships will be surrendered to B.O.A.C.

Mr. Lewis: Is the Minister aware that these appointments were made, as he rightly says, on the understanding that they would be on a full-time basis? Hence, the salaries for such appointments are not in any way small. They were based upon that fact. Does the Minister

think it is right that State employees should have the right to work for private industry? Is there not a danger that this can be extended? May civil servants now ask for the same opportunity, and shall we find them employed by private industry? There must inevitably come a time when there is the possibility of a clash between private interests and State interests.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Experience in industry generally is that it is often very valuable and sometimes very helpful for the head of one great industry to have direct, inside contact with one or two others. As to the salary, as the hon. Gentleman will have gathered from my original Answer, Sir Miles Thomas will not be a penny better for this.

Mr. Beswick: Whereas there is a great deal in what the Minister said, does he not agree that the difference between this case and other cases to which he has referred is that the Chairman is also the chief executive of the Corporation? As this follows a pattern of appointments and arrangements in which, for example, a retired civil servant takes the chief executive post in B.E.A., for the time being, and a part-time banker is appointed to succeed Mr. Whitney Straight in B.O.A.C., does the Minister not think that these matters ought to have been announced and explained to the House?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Gentleman is in error. In respect of B.E.A., the appointment which he has in
mind is that of the acting deputy-chairman and not that of the chief executive. On the other point, I am perfectly satisfied that a man of Sir Miles's capacity can adequately discharge his extremely important functions without the slightest detriment, as a result of the small amount of work involved in these directorships. Sir Miles's highly successful conduct of B.O.A.C. over the last few years should be sufficient reassurance for this House and for the country.

Dame Irene Ward: Is it not a very lucky thing that we have someone like Sir Miles Thomas who is able to give his great services to the nation? May I therefore ask my right hon. Friend not to pay any attention to what is said from the other side?

Mr. de Freitas: In view of the difficulties which B.O.A.C. is bound to be


facing very soon in this highly competitive field, is it not very important that Sir Miles Thomas should be encouraged to give his very great abilities, energies and enterprise exclusively to this Corporation, and that it is no time to distract him in other ways?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: There is no question of Sir Miles being distracted from duties the importance of which he appreciates as fully as does this House. I do not think we can deal with suitable people in senior appointments in the great industries on the basis of the Minister or, with respect, this House, laying down precisely and in detail how they shall use their time. The important thing is whether the job can be done adequately. In this case I am satisfied that it can.

Mr. H. Hynd: Is not this creating a precedent in the public service? Civil servants are not allowed to take part-time jobs. How can Sir Miles Thomas do another job if he is giving his full time to B.O.A.C., especially as the vice-chairman is also doing a part-time job?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The position of members of boards of nationalised industries is quite distinct from that of civil servants. There are, in fact, a number of precedents for whole-time members of nationalised boards accepting seats on other boards. Indeed, if the hon. Member looks at the White Paper circulated by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, he will see that some members are members of more than one nationalised board.

Mr. Edelman: From a somewhat different point of view, is it desirable that public servants should be associated with an enterprise, which is certainly speculative and, judging from precedents, may well become controversial? In those circumstances, will not the Minister give this further consideration?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In this context, the term "public servant" could be a little misleading. Sir Miles Thomas is chairman of a great industry, and I think the fact that his business experience has caused him to wish to apply for permission to accept this directorship should really be sufficient to quieten the hon. Gentleman's apprehensions.

Mr. G. R. Strauss: Whatever justification there may be in this particular case for granting permission to Sir Miles, is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that what is causing great concern is that it may lead to a general weakening in the direction of the Corporation, which is particularly dangerous at a time when it is facing such difficulty in settling the future aircraft-procurement programme?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman need have any fears on that score. There is no intention, or possibility, of the direction being weakened.

Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, to many people, the only thing strange about this arrangement is the receipt by B.O.A.C. of the fees of the new directorships? What possible interest has B.O.A.C. in the new companies? If it has an interest, there is some reason for the receipt of fees; otherwise, it seems a curious arrangement.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As I said in my main Answer, that is the established practice in these cases.

Mr. Remnant: Is it not a fact that Sir Miles Thomas could perfectly well have given his advice to this new outlet in his private time without any question but, much to his credit, rather than do that he has come into the open and done it in this way?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: That is perfectly true.

Pioneer Aircraft

Mr. Grimond: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what trials have been completed by his department with the twin-engined Pioneer as a civilian airplane.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: None Sir. The aircraft will however be subject to the normal testing required by the Air Registration Board before qualifying for a certificate of airworthiness.

Mr. Grimond: As this aircraft may be of great importance in certain internal services, will the right hon. Gentleman do his best to see that, if it is approved by the Board of Civil Aviation, the trials are completed as soon as possible?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I understand the hon. Gentleman's anxiety in regard to this attractive and interesting aircraft. As I had the opportunity of flying in one a little while ago, I can understand his enthusiasm.

Aircrew (Flight Duties)

Mr. Beswick: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will issue the new regulations on flight limitations on aircrew before the tribunal to be set up by the Minister of Labour to adjudicate on operating conditions of aircrew starts its hearings; and what steps he is taking to ensure that the flight duty schedules to be laid down by the operators after the findings of the tribunal are known, will conform to the safety limits to be laid down in his regulations.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The new regulations will be laid before Parliament as soon as they are ready, but I cannot say whether this will be before or after the setting up of the Tribunal. The Regulations will prescribe flight time maxima for safety purposes which it would be an offence to exceed.

Mr. Beswick: Would not the position be a little difficult if the operating schedules laid down after consideration by the tribunal are found to be outside the safety regulations which the Minister proposes to lay down? Is he further aware that there is a good deal of feeling, I think on both sides of the House, that representations made to him on this matter by responsible organisations have not been given the care and consideration by his Department that they might well have received?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I certainly do not accept that. On the contrary, we are, for the first time, prescribing reasonably detailed flight time limits, and I think that is accepted as a very considerable move forward. With regard to the first part of the Question, whatever may be the award or decision of the tribunal it would not be possible for hours to be flown in excess of those prescribed on safety grounds under the safety regulations.

Mr. Ernest Davies: Can the Minister say whether the flight times to which he has referred, and which will be in the regulations, have received the approval

of the different organisations representing crews? Have those organisations approved, or have they tabled objections after consultations with the right hon. Gentleman?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: These matters have been discussed with all the interests concerned. They do not go as far as one set of bodies would like, and they go a good deal further than bodies on the other side of the table would like, and therefore they are probably about right.

Air Commodore Harvey: In view of the almost daily changes in conditions of work for aircrew, will my right hon. Friend be careful what he writes?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Yes, Sir.

London Airport (Cranford Lane)

Mr. Beswick: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what representations have been received by him, or by the London Airport Consultative Committee, about the possibility of reopening Cranford Lane; when this matter was last reviewed by him; what present purpose is now served by the closing of this highway; and if he will issue, for an experimental period, passes to those who regularly journey between Harlington and Feltham.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Representations have been received by my Ministry from the Urban District Council of Feltham and the London Airport Consultative Committee have received similar representations from the Yiewsley and West Drayton Urban District Council. I am afraid that for the reasons which were fully explained to the hon. Member by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary on 8th August, it is not at present possible to make any alteration in the present position.

Mr. Beswick: Is the Minister aware that since that letter was written I have had some opportunity myself of inspecting the position there and find that the present arrangements do not at all meet security risks? It is possible for members of the public to wander over this area. Safety is cared for by the provision of lights controlling present traffic. Will the right hon. Gentleman please look into


this personally, as the present arrangement causes much public inconvenience and serves no good purpose?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I accept that there may be inconvenience, but I think that the hon. Member knows, from his own experience, the difficulty of a main road going through the area of B.O.A.C. If we can find a solution to that difficulty, I shall be only too glad.

Oral Answers to Questions — RAILWAYS

Modernisation

Mr. Ellis Smith: asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (1) if he will make a statement on the revised programme of capital expenditure for the modernisation of the British Railways, stating the amount which he has sanctioned to be spent in each region, and the amount sanctioned to be spent on main line diesels, diesel-electric and on electrification;
(2) when it is intended to carry out the modernisation, including the change over to diesel power, of the railways within the area covered by Stoke-on-Trent, Crewe, Liverpool, Birmingham and Manchester; and what capital expenditure he has sanctioned in this area under the modernisation programme.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As I explained in answer to a similar Question by the hon. Member on 29th June, I do not make allocations of capital for these purposes. So far as progress with the Modernisation and Re-equipment programme is concerned, I would ask the hon. Member to await the periodic forecasts to be issued by the British Transport Commission.

Mr. Ellis Smith: In regard to Question No. 25—these are two separate Questions —does the Minister agree that the density of population and the relative volume of output of the area are greater than in any other part of the world? If so, will he ensure that the modernisation programme, especially as it was this area which built London's Underground, is given complete priority?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I agree that the area is of very great importance, particularly from the industrial point of view. I am certain that the Transport Commission has that very much in mind.

Mr. Renton: Bearing in mind my right hon. Friend's statutory responsibilities with regard to capital expenditure by the British Transport Commission, will he use his best endeavours to ensure that the modernisation programme is carried out in such a way as to achieve the maximum economy in the use of coal?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Yes, Sir.

At the end of Questions—

Oral Answers to Questions — QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS

Mr. Warbey: On a point of order. As we are getting very near to Christmas and thousands of parents and wives of men serving in Malaya and Kenya are hoping for a seasonal reply to Question No. 58, I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if you would permit the Minister of Defence to answer that Question now?

Mr. Speaker: I have had no such request. It would be out of order for me to do that.

PUBLIC SERVICES SECURITY (CONFERENCE OF PRIVY COUNCILLORS)

The Prime Minister (Sir Anthony Eden): I will with permission, Mr. Speaker, make a statement about the appointment of a Conference of Privy Councillors to consider security precautions.
I have discussed the matter with the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, and the Conference will now consist of the following Privy Councillors:

My noble Friend the Lord President of the Council.
My noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor.
My right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary.
The noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison).
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss).
The Permanent Secretary to Her Majesty's Treasury.
The terms of reference for the Conference will be:
To examine the security procedures now applied in the public services and to consider whether any further precautions are called for and should be taken.

Mr. Bellenger: Although I can understand the considerations which have led the right hon. Gentleman to set up what is almost a closed shop, may I ask him whether there will be any report to Parliament as a result of the deliberations of these gentlemen?

The Prime Minister: I do not think it is a closed shop. It is composed of Members of both sides of the House who have had considerable experience of these matters, and, I think rightly, we have both of us excluded, in the main, those with direct Foreign Office responsibility during the period when this matter was under discussion. We have also chosen with great care, from both sides of the House, Home Secretaries and past Home Secretaries with special experience of this matter.
The report will be made to me, and as to whether any changes are required in the law or otherwise, that is, of course, for this Conference to recommend. If the Conference should recommend changes in the law or anything of that kind, clearly they would be for reference to this House.

Mr. Emrys Hughes: Could the Prime Minister say whether this is to be another branch of the Secret Service? If so, how will ordinary mortals be able to make up their minds about this? How far are the public and other hon. Members going to know anything about it?

The Prime Minister: I thought that the selection of leaders from both parties which I have announced would inspire confidence in the breast of the hon. Gentleman. If it does not, I am afraid that it is beyond me to provide a cure for him.

Mr. M. Lindsay: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that the anxiety that some of us have about this body is that it consists of such very busy men that they may not be able to probe to the extent that should be done? I should,

therefore, like to know whether my right hon. Friend proposes to attach to this body, in the secretariat or whatever it may be, sufficient staff to be able to assist the body in any probes that may be desirable.

The Prime Minister: The Conference will have full powers to send for any persons or papers that may be required; but for the rest, I think my hon. Friend will realise that it has been hard to choose persons with more experience of these matters than those who have been placed on this Conference.

Mr. Daines: While recognising that there must be certain parts of the report of the Conference which must be confidential on security grounds, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will not agree that there are other aspects of the matter upon which a public report would be welcome? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is still profound disquiet arising out of the debate on Maclean and Burgess, as was instanced yesterday? Will the right hon. Gentleman please consider what information can be released to the public consistent with safety?

The Prime Minister: This report is to be made to me, and this is exactly in accordance with what I informed the House in the closing stages of our debate on the subject. It will certainly be open to this Conference to examine the steps which have been taken to increase our security since the Maclean and Burgess affair. I think it will be valuable that those who were not then in office should examine those steps which were taken to see what action is necessary.

Mr. Rankin: Do I take it from the Prime Minister's last reply that terms of reference are to be given to this Conference?

The Prime Minister: I read the terms of reference as clearly as I could.

Orders of the Day — FINANCE BILL

Considered in Committee [Progress, 22nd November].

[Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

First Schedule.—(AMENDMENTS OF PURCHASE TAX RATES.)

3.39 p.m.

Mrs. Jean Mann: I beg to move, in page 11, line 9, to leave out "(r)".
Paragraph (r) refers to baths, washtubs, washboards, ironing boards, shields and stands for smoothing irons or pressing irons, clothes line posts, clothes pegs, clothes props and clothes irons. In the merry month of May, when the Chancellor went a'wooing and when the women of this country accepted his luscious promises about doubling the standard of living and about leading the country further along the road of confident expansion, who would have thought, listening to the Tory promises, "There ain't going to be a crisis" and "It ain't going to rain no more," that by the month of November everything would have been forgotten.
Housewives who accepted the proposal and who accepted the right hon. Gentleman and all his relatives with him, including his in-laws, did not dream that they were going to be assailed not merely in rents, rates and food but that he was actually going to have his eye on their clothes pegs with which they pegged up the youngsters' nappies in the back garden. One can understand the taxation of luxury goods, but for this there is no defence. Take the first item, baths. They were hitherto exempt—Sir Charles, if I cannot have some order in the Committee I do not intend to speak further.

The Chairman: Order. I hope that the Committee will keep quiet while the hon. Lady is making her speech.

Mrs. Mann: It should be quite unnecessary for me to raise my voice. I do not like to hear a woman raising her voice, in Parliament or anywhere else.
Why should the Chancellor think about baths? I wonder whether he is aware that in singling out this item for increased taxation he is hitting at the very poorest of the poor, the people who cannot afford

a bathroom? They are the people who are not in council houses. Those of them in my city usually live in tenements. They push a zinc bath under the bed and bring it out on Friday night, or whichever night dad has his bath, and then push it back again and bring it out the next night when the children take their baths. Many hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have seen these zinc baths hanging out in the back yard.
Over the past six months, the right hon. Gentleman, and other hon. Members opposite, have been saying to these people who do not have bathrooms, these people who live in the older properties, "Why should you have to pay in your rates to help to subsidise people who have bathrooms and modern baths?" Out of their sympathy for these poor people this is what they now do—they put a tax on the old zinc bath.
Let us consider washtubs and washboards. There are many women who voted Conservative at the last Election and who, unfortunately, believe almost everything that hon. Members opposite tell them. Many of them think that hon. Members opposite are incapable of making a misleading statement. They do not realise that the only way hon. Members opposite can get power at all is by making misleading statements to either one or other section of the community. They cannot in the same policy support both the policeman and the burglar. It is impossible for hon. Members opposite to please people who finance them, and give us a policy that will help the people who need help.
Many women postponed buying a washing machine. I myself have never had a washing machine, though I should not like to say that I took heed of what the Chancellor said and prevented inflation by depriving myself of a washing machine—there are a great many reasons why I have never had a washing machine. But other people postponed buying washing machines because of what the Chancellor said about hire purchase and a spending spree. If a woman does without a washing machine, she needs a washtub and a washboard, yet the Chancellor rewards her by taxing the only alternative to a washing machine.
3.45 p.m.
It is said that housewives always sing when they are at the washtub and I believe it is also said that men sing in


their bath. Well, the men who are singing in their bath and the women singing at the washtub ought to dedicate a song to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a well-known song,
All of me,
Why not take all of me?
I will pass to the ironing board. There is no reason why ironing boards should be taken from those articles which are exempt and put on the tax level. It just shows how utterly mean the right hon. Gentleman has become, and I wish that he would take this to heart and discipline himself. He seeks out the shields for smoothing irons. Is there anything more humble than a shield for a smoothing iron? There is no hon. Lady in this House who does not pity the woman who has to put an iron on the fire, because this is what this means.
In these days of automation, of antibiotics and of nuclear energy women are still to be found who have no alternative than to stick an iron in the embers of the fire. Instead of showing a little sympathy for these poor women, the Chancellor taxes the very shield with which she wraps up the iron. I did not agree with the former Budgets of the right hon. Gentleman, but I did not know that he could go to these lengths in this one.
Then there are the clothes line posts and the clothes pegs. In his last Budget speech, the one which he made before the General Election, the right hon. Gentleman talked very confidently about looking upward and outward. Personally, I thought that that indicated that one would require to have a squint. He talked about liberating the human spirit. How can one reconcile that type of language used in May with the impositions on the poorest of our housewives in the month of November? Where, indeed, was the right hon. Gentleman looking when he discovered all these things? The iron rests in the embers of the fire, and he actually saw that. He saw the shield, the ironing board and the clothes line.
The right hon. Gentleman must have been doing a lot of travelling in trains. He must have been thinking, "What more can I tax?" As he travelled throughout the country he saw the clothes lines, and the women hanging out the nappies on a Monday morning, and he had his eye on

the clothes prop as well as on both the clothes line and the clothes pegs—even the very prop with which they keep the clothes off the ground. At the same time, the right hon. Gentleman says, "We must not have a spending spree." If we do not use clothes props, what is to happen to the clothes? Are clothes props considered as part of a spending spree?

Mr. Jack Jones: They are part of a spreading tree.

Mrs. Mann: What could we do without clothes pegs? How could we hang out a line of washing without clothes pegs? They cost about 2½d. each and on every peg ld. will go. It is all calculated to assist the Chancellor in the fulfilment of his promise that the Tory Party would double the standard of living within the next 25 years. Many housewives would like an instalment to be going on with while they are still alive. They would like to know the fragrance of the lilies while they can still smell them.
I noticed that Conservative women at their last conference said, "If the cost of living does not come down we shall lose votes at the next Election." I see the Economic Secretary to the Treasury smiling and writing down a magnificent reply to my speech, but it will have to be a reply to what he himself said. My colleagues quoted the Conservative women as saying that the rising cost of living made canvassing increasingly difficult and that four resolutions criticising living costs were before the conference.
The Economic Secretary rose with great triumph to tell us that he had carried the conference with him in the end with a vote of confidence in the Government. He did not tell us, however, that an amendment was passed approving the Government's moves to stabilise prices. Did he tell the women how he proposed to stabilise prices? We were told that once we had decontrol on everything prices would find their own level. Is there an hon. Member opposite who knows at just which figure prices will find their own level? We have been waiting for four years for prices to find their own level. The ex-Minister of Food said. "We will first stabilise"—

Mr. Jack Jones: Paralyse.

Mrs. Mann: —"and then reduce." Yes, we are paralysed at the effrontery of right hon. and hon. Members opposite.
In the name of those who support this Amendment, I ask that the humble implements of hard-working women shall have taxation removed from them altogether and be treated as they were before the May Election.

Mr. Gerald Williams: I want to associate myself with this Amendment for the particular reason that the list for imposing a 30 per cent. tax includes babies' baths. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has gone out of his way always to exempt from tax as much as he can what babies wear and use. Perhaps these babies' baths have got into the list through an accident, or because they have been overlooked. I cannot believe that the Chancellor is trying to discourage baby washing.
Tubs and basins can be used for other purposes and my right hon. Friend may have very good reasons for taxing them. I am behind the Chancellor in introducing the Purchase Tax to cover a wide range of articles to stop more money being spent and our import position getting worse, but I should like him to look at this case again. There is a special type of baby's bath which hooks on to the sides above an ordinary bath. These babies' baths are quite unsuitable for any other purpose because they are fairly high priced. They are a great convenience for the mother, who can wash her child and ensure that the splashes go into the ordinary bath. That saves her trouble, the baby gets more comfort and fuel is saved by having to heat less water.
These articles are made in my constituency and I am told that no imported material is used in their manufacture. Practically the whole of the material used is plastic. These babies' baths are exported to a very considerable extent, and that trade is growing every day. If the present
proposal is accepted, and 30 per cent. tax goes on to these baths, it will kill the home market. Everyone knows that unless we have a healthy home market exports will probably die also. A large order is about to be given by the well-known American firm of Sears Roebuck for these baths of English manufacture, but it looks very probable that that order will be lost if the tax is put on. I hope, therefore, that the small concession for which I am asking can be given, that the Chancellor will realise that if he puts this tax on he will lose the very

exports he is so anxious to gain. If he cannot accept the whole Amendment, I hope that in his reply the Economic Secretary will be able to say that this item was overlooked, or that it will be reconsidered and he will see what he can do about it.

Mr. John Dugdale: I listened with very great interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann). There is only one thing with which I must admit I did disagree. That was the simplicity with which she seemed to regard promises made by hon. Members opposite. Surely by this time we know that the definition of a Conservative is one who says one thing and does another. We had experience of that in the last Election, and should now take it for granted and act on that basis. That is what has happened and will happen in the future. We may take it as the usual practice of the Conservative Party. I do not find it a matter for any surprise.
I do not wish to go into the wider spheres of discussion, however, but to confine myself to the very limited subject of clothes posts, which are made in my constituency—

Mr. Sidney Dye: They are grown in my constituency.

Mr. Dugdale: My hon. Friend says that clothes posts are grown in his constituency, but those made in my constituency are not grown—they are made of steel. I hope that at a later stage my hon. Friend will be able to intervene and explain about the type of clothes posts which grow in his constituency. Those from my constituency are of tubular steel—

Mr. Jack Jones: And very good, too.

Mr. Dugdale: Yes they are very good. I am glad to have the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones).
I ask the Economic Secretary to consider this item very carefully. As my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie said, these articles are not luxuries but necessities. They are considered as necessities not only by the women who use them but by builders. They are now being put into all new houses as fixtures. This tax will mean


yet another small addition to the house-building costs of local authorities. It may be a very small one, but, spread throughout the country, it must be seriously considered as another addition to the cost of house building.
4.0 p.m.
In 1951, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) was Chancellor, the Korean War was on, and we were in a very difficult position. At that time, difficult though the situation was, my right hon. Friend found it possible to remove the tax upon these items. Now, when the Chancellor says that conditions are getting better, that everything is going along fine, and no one needs to worry at all because we are going to get richer and richer, he reimposes this very heavy tax of 30 per cent. upon the items released from taxation by my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Gerald Nabarro: Are these items made of steel or of a non-ferrous alloy?

Mr. Dugdale: If the hon. Member will wait a moment I shall explain exactly what they are made of, and I think that the explanation will satisfy him. He is probably thinking about the raw material situation, which is a perfectly reasonable point. It may be said that these posts could be exported. The general idea of the Conservative Party is that if something is made and sold at home, and a tax is put upon it, it is then immediately exportable, because it cannot be sold here any longer.

Mr. Jack Jones: Sheer nonsense.

Mr. Dugdale: I agree. In the case of this item it is even more nonsense than usual, if that is possible—because these things, although relatively cheap, are extremely heavy. One of the most important items in the export trade is that of freight, and these goods would have to pay very heavy transport charges, although they are relatively low-priced articles. It is, therefore, almost impossible for them to compete in any foreign market.
I can tell the hon. Member for Kidder-minister (Mr. Nabarro) that these posts are made, in the main, from boiler tubes, bought second-hand from British Railways and reconditioned. It cannot be

said that they are using the best quality steel, which would otherwise go into products which could be sold abroad for dollars or other foreign currencies.

Mr. Nabarro: I am quite aware of the trade which is going on in the Black Country and in the right hon. Gentleman's constituency, but before these disused and worn-out boiler tubes from locomotives found their way into clothes poles they provided very valuable scrap for the steel industry.

Mr. Dugdale: They have to be made of some kind of raw material, but in this case it is raw material of the least value, and of much less use than would have been the case if they had been made of new and pure steel. They are simply made of scrap.

Mr. Harold Wilson: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that with the complete absence of controls upon the use of steel, and the absence of building licensing generally, if this scrap gets into the steel industry it will probably be wasted upon non-essential building, such as the new Conservative Central Office?

Mr. Jack Jones: The hon. Member who has now become known as the "Kidder of the Minister" seems to be advocating that these boiler tubes should be taken out of the boiler; should then be taken down by craftsmen, put on the railways, transported to the steel works and then, by the use of valuable coal or gas, turned back into steel—and then rolled out into tubes to be made into clothes posts once more. That is the business man's idea. Our idea is to use scrap, paint it, and sell it reasonably cheaply to the housewife.

Mr. Dugdale: I am surprised at the intervention of the hon. Member for Kidderminster, because he knows a good deal about my constituency and he knows that many people in it are exceedingly poor. They need clothes posts, but do not want to have to pay more money for them—and they should not be made to. He is seeking deliberately to encourage a higher rate to be paid for these necessities. I do not know whether these posts are used by people in Kidderminster; they may use the kind produced by my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Dye), which are made of


a different material. In my constituency they are used frequently, and it is very unfortunate that everybody who wants one in future will have to pay more for it.
I sum up by saying that these items are necessities; the increase in tax upon them, though very small, will nevertheless have a certain effect upon the cost of house building; they cannot be used for the export trade with any success, and the raw materials used in their making are of the cheapest possible kind. For all those reasons I hope that the Chancellor will reconsider this matter seriously and see if it is not possible to omit this item from the list of things which he has decided are required to bear a higher tax.

Mr. Nabarro: I intervene only for half a minute to ask my right hon. Friend to reject at once all these arguments which, in my view, are entirely spurious. At present, we are importing 2 million tons of steel a year, in one form or another. It is true, as the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) said, that one way of regulating the use of steel is by employing physical controls, and all the abracadabra of a steel rationing system. In my view, the Chancellor is absolutely right in using fiscal and monetary means and purposes for discouraging the employment of steel which may be used for very much more valuable purposes than clothes posts.
The right hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) supported his argument by saying that these clothes posts were mostly made out of scrap water tubes from old locomotives. That may well be the case, but the plain fact is that not only are we importing 2 million tons of steel a year, at a cost of between £75 million and £80 million, but we are also importing high-grade scrap and the raw material of steel works in many different forms. It is wholly injurious to our economy for metals to be used for articles such as clothes posts, when an indigenous timber clothes pole, made from scantlings and thinnings from our own forests, may be employed at least to equally good effect.
I hope that my right hon. Friend will discard all these arguments and stick to the simple principle that it is quite legitimate to use the weapon of Purchase Tax

to discourage the consumption of those articles of a consumer character which contain steel or other metals—be they ferrous or non-ferrous—which are so urgently needed by our principal exporting industries.

Mr. B. T. Parkin: Can the hon. Member spare another half minute to explain something? It is very unlikely that the Government Front Bench will do so. What is his own view about the application of this tax to articles, made of metal, which are not fixtures? Why is it that these clothes posts are the only single builders' fixtures which are taxed? The heavy fixed articles escape tax, but those which use up only trivial amounts of metal attract the heaviest tax.

Mr. Nabarro: The short answer is that there is a very wide range of consumer goods which contain tubular steel in one form or another and which are subject to Purchase Tax. All tubular steel furniture is subject to Purchase Tax, and it springs from the same raw material as that of which these clothes posts are made.

The Chairman: I do not think that such furniture comes within the scope of this Amendment.

Mr. H. Wilson: It is important to question the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) further upon this matter, because he is almost the only Tory who has supported the Government in these debates. The burden of what he was saying was that he supported the Amendment, and so, logically, he should support us in the Lobby, because he wants to encourage the use of timber clothes posts; and as there is tax on timber clothes posts he ought to be voting against the Chancellor.

Mr. Nabarro: I must not be led outside the rules of order in this matter, and if I debated it with the right hon. Gentleman I should be out of order.

Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman apparently is reflecting both on your conduct in the Chair, Sir Charles, and upon my intervention. The Amendment refers to clothes posts and says nothing at all about metal clothes posts. I submit that I was in order in referring to clothes posts.

Mr. Parkin: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) appears to be so defeated in the argument that he must leave, and I hope that while absenting himself from the Chamber he will also absent himself from the Division Lobby when the time comes to vote on the Amendment. I do not wish to add very much to what my hon. Friend the Member for Coat-bridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) has already so eloquently said on the subject of the burden the tax places on the housewives, but I want right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench to realise that when hon. Members on this side of the Committee give examples of the sort of hardship that is suffered they are not examples thought up in support of speeches in debate but are examples drawn from the experiences of hon. Members in their constituencies, among people whom they know and whom they represent here.
Only a few days ago, at an advice bureau in my constituency, I was visited by a lady who had got herself into extraordinary difficulty by showing kindness to her neighbours who could not afford clothes posts. In her backyard she has a tree, and first one and then another of her neighbours asked that they might be allowed to carry their clothes lines from their windows to the tree. [An HON. MEMBER: "Tax free."] There are now nine families using her tree because they have no clothes posts, because the landlords are not willing to provide them. She, of course, is not now in a position to tell those people to take their clothes lines away, and it will be the landlord who will have, perhaps with some firmness, to be brought to take action to see that those nine families have separate clothes posts. The intervention of the Government to prevent that from taking place will certainly be a burden upon them.
It is true, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, that this tax appears to have been specifically selected to bear most heavily on those who are the worst used. Anyone who can afford any of these articles provided as home fixtures, which are normally built in in luxury flats and even any ordinarily comfortable modern home, and for which infinitely more metal and raw materials are used, is excused tax on them. The Government have to seek to tax the slum dwellers,

and those who live in tenements and in overcrowded conditions, in old homes they yet try to keep neat and clean.
The Government fly in the face of all the propaganda and education—not indeed, that the propaganda and education were necessary for this, because people naturally want to keep their homes clean and neat, they naturally want to make the best possible provision for washing and laundry, and for bathing and otherwise looking after their children. These efforts for improving the conditions of living in tenement houses are being frustrated by the action of the Government.
4.15 p.m.
There is another matter I want to raise now partly, because I believe that the Economic Secretary will reply to this debate, and we may, perhaps, expect from him more ebullient improvisation in replying than we can from any of his colleagues. We on this side of the Committee, in our debates of the Budget and the Bill, have been trying to get the Chancellor to realise that the provisions of the Budget are inflationary. We have tried to do so from a number of angles, but we seem to have made very little impression. The Amendment relates to a group of articles upon which a very heavy tax indeed is being imposed, and I would draw the Government's attention to the inflationary effects of the tax upon those articles.
The Chancellor—I am very glad he is here—enjoys a reputation for liberal-mindedness and progressive ideas on many aspects of the social services of the country. I wish to draw a parallel between his situation at the present time and the fate that overtook a previous Chancellor of the Exchequer when the latter was the victim and the slave of an economic doctrine and a fashion in economic opinion of his day as Chancellor.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), in his long and colourful political career, did a good many things which would excite the animated opposition of the supporters of the party on this side of the Committee, but the one which earned the undying detestation of vast numbers of the people, and especially in what were the depressed areas at the time, was one that he did more or less by accident and bitterly


repented within a year or two: he acceded to the economic fashion at the time and put this country back on the Gold Standard. That has haunted him ever since.

Mr. Ellis Smith: It was deliberate policy.

Mr. Parkin: It was deliberate policy, but it was thrust upon him by his economic advisers.
It would indeed be a tragedy if the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his turn, became a victim of the notion that the way to stop inflation is to increase prices. It seems to have got hold of him. Perhaps he will recover in a few years' time.
I wish to produce one more argument. I have already adduced the argument of the effect on the cost of living of automatic increases in wages to those who work in the industries which produce these taxed articles. This is a heavy increase of tax, which means an increase in prices; it means automatic increases in the wages of those who make them, which automatically find their way into the prices of the articles. Nothing the Chancellor can do about it will stop that inflationary effect. There is another inflationary effect which will develop, and for this reason.
We are now dealing with a group of articles on which this tax will require about a 50 per cent. increase in the working capital of the retailers, because they have to pay the Purchase Tax on the articles when they are delivered into their shops. That is a quite devastating burden for a retailer suddenly to have to bear. What will be the result? The result, quite naturally—and the Chancellor will, no doubt, be very pleased about it—will be that the retailer will cut down his stocks. He will renew and make up his ranges of stocks of these articles in only the smallest possible quantities. But the manufacturer is not able to handle orders for one saucepan, size 5, and two, size 7. If he is not to increase the cost of production quite fantastically he has to continue his production planning in series, and so, somewhere between the manufacturer and the retailer, there will have to be a system whereby the tank is steadily filled by the steady output of the manufacturer and drawn upon by the dipping out of the retailer.
What will happen is that there will be

more use made of wholesalers than is necessary. That will have a very bad effect upon the system of distribution in this country and will add considerably to the cost of goods when they find their way to the consumer. It will also result in a very unfair influence being brought to bear upon the wholesale side of this industry. Where wholesaling is an important and necessary stage in distribution there is a case to be made, and a very important rôle to be played by the wholesaler. In many industries he presents to the retailer a varied and attractive range of goods.
There are many industries where the wholesaler commissions certain designs and has a number of manufacturers providing them for him, but not too many designs for each manufacturer, and where it would, in fact, be impossible to carry on the retail trade effectively and impossible for retailers to get the variety of stock in their shops without the assistance of the wholesaler.
That is a legitimate function where the skill and judgment of the wholesaler plays an important part, and he is very properly rewarded for it. It would, however, be a very mischievous and costly thing if we now had a new type of wholesaler who was merely a wholesaler because he was financing stocks, and because he could afford to pay the Purchase Tax and relieve the manufacturer of the output as it came along, and then wait for the retailer to put in his small orders.
We are discussing on this Amendment a number of articles which do not need much variety of design. There is no reason why these simple articles cannot find their way direct from the manufacturer to the retailer's shop. It is not like the textile industry, where it is necessary to choose from a variety of patterns and qualities. These are simple, straightforward, things. But the wholesaler has to be paid for his function, for the work he does, and for the handling of the goods. The Chancellor usually, when he is doing his arithmetic, thinks in terms of millions and hundreds of millions. May I take him through the arithmetic of a 10s. article within this range?
An article now costing 10s. in a shop probably costs the retailer 7s. 6d.; that is to say, the manufacturer would get 7s. 6d. for the article. If, in future, the manufacturer sells it to the retailer there


will be a tax of approximately 2s. 6d. as a result of the provisions of the Bill. But if the manufacturer sells it first to a wholesaler that will mean that the cost of the article will be put up by something like 2s. 6d. in the shop. The 10s. article would cost 12s. 6d., which is bad enough.
Supposing that the article finds its way to a wholesaler, the wholesaler's profit will be added first and his margin of 17½ per cent. or thereabouts has to be taken into account. That means that he will add 20 per cent. to the 7s. 6d. The wholesalers price will be 9s., and the tax will now be payable on a total of 9s. and not 7s. 6d. which will make the cost to the retailer about 12s. If the retailer puts on only his old profit the cost of the article will be about 15s. in the shop, and if he puts a profit on the Purchase Tax as well that article will cost the domestic consumer 16s. instead of 10s.
I hope that the Economic Secretary will be able to explain to me that that is not inflationary and that it is helping the economy of the country. That is the sort of cumulative, mounting effect of this tax which the Chancellor may be trying to achieve for all we know. We have asked him straight out if he really believes that he can check inflation without deliberately causing unemployment. The replies have for the most part been emotional rather than logical from the other side of the Committee. They take the form of indignantly denying any such thing.
There is, of course, one final explanation. It may be that the Chancellor intends to apply a jolt to the public mind and a halt to consumer expenditure by a trick. It may be that he does not want this debate to end very soon. This is something that could help. Whatever Chancellor is sitting opposite will have to meet the same situation of inflation at the time of full employment. I think that the Chancellor will have gathered from the various remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) that my right hon. Friend would not have met the situation in the same way.
It would need a Government which really enjoyed the confidence of the whole country to persuade people to stop buying about one half of what they want to buy for a month or six weeks. I suppose

that the Chancellor would be very well-satisfied if everyone who needed to renew any sort of necessity put off the renewal for about a month. He would then, in fact, have achieved some immediate results. Perhaps that is what he is trying to do.
When this announcement was made about the kind of article which we are discussing now, a rumour appeared in the Press that the Chancellor intended to change his mind. I was most impressed by the manufacturers who told me that trade was at a standstill and that no one would renew his orders until he had some confirmation or denial from the Chancellor. I tried to put down a Private Notice Question because it seemed to me to be such an important matter, but I was unsuccessful.
I raised the matter on Second Reading, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) pressed the Chancellor for an answer. No answer was forthcoming; no answer one way or the other. Perhaps the Chancellor is trying to prolong this indecision. Perhaps he would like these debates to go on for several weeks during which time the tank of commerce is slowly emptied and not renewed. If so, we shall be delighted to co-operate from this side of the Committee.

The Chairman: I think it will go on for several weeks if we do not keep to the Order Paper.

Mr. Parkin: I know that the Economic Secretary will not be able to tell my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie why the Government should select the poorest of the poor on which to put this burden. I know that there is no answer which will satisfy the people in my constituency who live in tenement houses where life is made possible only by the sort of articles which are attracting this vindictive attack. There will be no answer to them, but the Economic Secretary might like to enjoy himself by explaining what is his attitude to this remorseless, cumulative inflationary process which the Chancellor is launching into the distributive side of the country's economy.

4.30 p.m.

Mrs. Eirene White: My hon. Friends have already put the arguments very strongly against the Chancellor's proposals and I want to give


expression very briefly to what I can only call a little feminine contempt of the fact that any man should appear before the House of Commons with the effrontery to ask us to put a tax on some of the articles that are included in the Schedule.
I do not know how it is pronounced in Cambridge, but I pronounce it as we do in Oxford and say to the Chancellor, "De minimis non curat lex." There are some things which should be beneath the notice of a man in the exalted position of Chancellor of the Exchequer. To think that the Chancellor should ask us to consider seriously putting a tax on clothes pegs! This apparently is necessary to the right hon. Gentleman's grand design for the recovery of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman has sunk as low as that.
I suppose that when one examines the list one could hardly expect the Chancellor to consider every item on its merits, but he might at least have glanced at the words "clothes pegs" and avoided placing himself in such a ridiculous and humiliating situation as to have to urge the Commons in Parliament assembled to agree to a tax on clothes pegs. Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted the gipsies? Although there are other types of clothes pegs manufactured in the country, pegs are still made by gipsies.
As far as I know, gipsies are not a corporate body. They are individualists. Does the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, ask that every gipsy in the country should register and take out a licence? I am not familiar with all the intricacies of the Purchase Tax, but I understand that if one sells articles which are subject to tax one has to register in some way. Are gipsies to register for the sale of clothes pegs? If not, presumably they will be breaking the law. Has the right hon. Gentleman had the Schedule translated into Romany?

Mr. Cyril Bence: There will be a tax on the gipsy's warning.

Mrs. White: I think that the gipsies will have something to say to the Chancellor. They might even spirit him away, which would not be a bad thing.
I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) made a slight error. While it is true that clothes props and clothes posts and clothes airers are subject to tax, it appears that clothes lines are not, for some reason. Surely this is a serious omission. The Chancellor cannot be knowing his business if he is leaving them out. A note on Group 11 (r) states:
Clothes lines, indoor or outdoor, are regarded as not chargeable with tax.
No doubt the Economic Secretary to the Treasury will say whether they are now to be taxed or are to remain exempt. This is an omission which the hon. Gentleman can perhaps make good on the Report stage.
There is also, in the "Notice by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise," another slightly puzzling note. Group 11 (r) exemptions include clothes boilers. Can the hon. Gentleman explain the difference between the clothes boiler in that group and the wash boiler and wash copper in Group 12 (f) which, apparently, are still exempt from tax? Am I right in assuming that the boilers mentioned in Group 11 (r) are the kind that one has to place on the fire or the stove and those in Group 12 (f) are the kind in which a heating element is incorporated? I imagine that that is so, but the Economic Secretary should make clear to the Committee whether clothes boilers which have no fire are still exempt or whether they are to be subject to this very burdensome tax.
I should also like to ask the hon. Gentleman what justification he has for suggesting that washboards should be included. Anyone who knows anything about washing—and I fear that the Economic Secretary does not know much about clothes washing—will realise that using this article is one of the most burdensome ways of doing one's laundry. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make the experiment, I suggest that it might have the effect of reducing the waist line. Why, when one has a difficult and strenuous job to do, should one have the added insult of being taxed for doing it? That is the burden of our complaint about the articles that are included in this Group.
Hardly one of these articles is
normally used by persons who live in houses provided with real modern conveniences. They are almost all things that are used by persons who either live in country


cottages, where there are no gas, electricity and other amenities, or who live in towns but are just too poor to afford the modern equipment which I imagine all of us here expect to find at home. The people who have to do their washing in this way, using portable baths, are precisely those who have a burdensome life already. I cannot see why we should suggest that in addition to having all the hard work they should have to pay extra money for being permitted to do it.
I feel very strongly about the taxing of portable baths. Fixed baths are not taxed. These portable baths are those used by people who have to carry the water, heat it on the fire or on the stove, fill the bath, empty the bath again, and do all that kind of laborious business. No one who was in a position to afford anything better would do that. No woman would use the old-fashioned washboard and the portable bath if she could afford even the simplest kind of wash boiler. This tax seems to me iniquitous.
I see that iron shields are also taxed. If one has to wash and iron clothes for a large family, perhaps including dirty clothes for working men and one still is in the position of having to use an iron which needs a shield, one must either be living in the remote countryside or else living in the town but too poor to be able to buy a modern electric iron. Therefore, if ever there was a deliberately discriminating tax on the poor who have to do hard physical work in their homes it is this tax. It is really despicable. We make jokes about it, but to tax all these articles is really contemptible.

Mr. Albert Evans: Would my hon. Friend also bear in mind that the iron shield is used by large numbers of old people who, from force of habit, like to iron in this way in preference to using modern appliances?

Mrs. White: That may be, but that adds point to my argument that we are oppressing people who are not in a position to look after themselves.
I cannot believe that the officials of the Treasury or the occupants of the Government Front Bench can have ever done the kind of work which has to be done by people who still use such appliances. If they had ever done it them-

selves I am convinced that they would have said, "At least we will strike this out." I cannot believe that any one of them can have experienced the backbreaking work of doing washing in this way, or can have visualised the labour, when there are children in a house, of having bath tubs which need to be filled and emptied by hand. It is a laborious and tedious business.
This cannot make much difference financially. I am glad that the Chancellor has returned to the Committee and I hope he will feel that his proposal is a despicable way of dealing with people who would not be using any of these appliances if they were in a position to afford better ones. I ask that he should show some feeling for people in the position I have described, by making this gesture. I am grateful to the Chancellor for the small gesture he made in another direction, the only one so far, but here is an opportunity for him to show that he has some imagination and sympathy with people who have to use these laborious and irksome processes.

Sir Ian Fraser: It has been said that few of us on these benches support the Chancellor and that while most of the speeches against these proposal are made from the other side of the Committee there have been even a few from this side. It is well known to us who work in this environment that hon. Members who support the Government generally try not to speak unless they are specially urged to do so. It is manifest that if we made as many and as long speeches as those made by hon. Gentlemen opposite, we would have had three all-night sittings instead of one and that nothing new would have been said. Therefore, it must not be assumed by those outside, as is put about by hon. Gentlemen opposite, that because we do not all speak here we do not think the proposals of the Chancellor are right, broadly speaking. Indeed, we have shown that we believe this to be so by supporting my right hon. Friend in the Division Lobbies.
I would ask the Committee to consider what is the purpose which the Chancellor has in mind. Primarily it is to save the £ from devaluation and to close the widening gap in the balance of payments. All the proposals of the Chancellor must be viewed, therefore, from the point of


view of making a contribution towards those ends.
Much is made of the hardship of the housewife, the hardship of the wage earner, the hardship of the old people, and so on. Let it be remembered that there is no greater hardship which could befall them than that money should lose its value in the next few years at the rate at which it lost its value during the first few years of the Labour Government. That indeed, would be the greatest hardship of all. Wages, salaries, profits, are all compensated in a period of inflation by the fact that they fall to be paid in the new currency, but those who live on small fixed incomes, such as the pensioners and the old people, do not get compensation, or they get it very slowly. The consequence is that when money is allowed to lose its virtue the people hit most are those who are most in need.
So I say that there is a great deal of misplaced sympathy—I would almost say humbug—in the constantly reiterated statements made by hon. Gentlemen opposite that they are the protectors of the housewife. It was they who sold her down the river during the period when costs rose so swiftly in the five years after the war.

The Temporary Chairman (Sir Austin Hudson): The hon. Member must get on to baths, washtubs, et cetera.

4.45 p.m.

Sir I. Fraser: That is a fair point, Sir Austin, which I take.
It is suggested that these commodities are the ones which should be left out, especially baths, especially washtubs. It is suggested that a tax upon them will promote the utmost possible hardship for women in their homes. This is nonsense. The same thing has been said about each Amendment as we came to it. First, it was mops. It was suggested that if we taxed mops that would be a special hardship; if we taxed bath tubs, that would be a special hardship. Everything is a special hardship. It is obvious to me that if we are to affect the economic position throughout the land we must deal with a wide category of goods. If that is to be the method we must have taxation over a wide range. Most of all, we must discourage spending on many things.
I have heard it said that it would have been all right if the Chancellor had put up the tax on luxuries rather than impose it on washtubs, but that, again, is nonsense. Not enough people buy luxuries to make the economic effect of any importance, whatever tax is put on them. It may be electorally valuable to raise the tax on luxuries and not on goods bought by the masses of the people, but that would have little or no economic effect, and it is an economic effect which the Chancellor is trying to produce.

Mr. Sydney Silverman: Then why has the Chancellor raised Purchase Tax on motor cars?

Sir I. Fraser: It would be out of order to discuss motor cars.

Mr. Silverman: Why has he done it?

Sir I. Fraser: By way of illustration, the answer would be that motor cars are bought by many people. The Chancellor particularly wants more cars to be bought overseas. If he had singled out only the Rolls-Royce, it would have been ridiculous. Certainly, it would have enabled hon. Gentlemen opposite to wave the flag and to say, "Look how we are penalising the few who have Rolls-Royces," but it would not have had the desired effect. The very fact that the tax is put on popular motor cars—

Mr. Ellis Smith: Are they listed in the Schedule?

Sir I. Fraser: I am sorry. I have been led on to motor cars and I will come back to washtubs.
There might be certain categories of goods which could be left out. For example, supposing it was proposed to put a tax on poppies which are sold on Remembrance Day, there might be such a strong sentiment against this that it would be overwhelming. Also, there might be a case for removing tax from baskets made by blind people or for not putting it on. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is on."] The Chancellor himself thought there was a case for dealing with bootees, not on any sentimental ground, but because the tax would produce a great anomaly.
If it is argued and agreed that everything is an exception, that everything produces a special hardship, the purpose of the Chancellor would be defeated. Let me repeat what is the purpose of my


right hon. Friend. It is to restrict spending at home in order to try to save the £ by reducing the gap in our balance of payments. That can only be done by widespread action over a large range of goods affecting many people. It amounts to this, that if people are not willing to help the nation in its present time of trouble by supporting these measures, in spite of all that is said in this House, there is no way in which the £ can be saved. If hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite were on this side of the Committee they would have their own methods—

Mr. Silverman: We would.

Sir I. Fraser: They would not then come along and say, "We will tax only luxuries, we will raise Income Tax or Surtax only in respect of higher incomes."

Mr. Donald Chapman: That is what we did.

Sir I. Fraser: The taxes would have to operate over all purchasers and people throughout the land, or they would fail. It is obvious that to produce the desired effect, the operation must be over the whole field. Therefore, there is no more case for leaving out washtubs than for leaving out anything else. If we leave out the whole lot, we are not doing anything to inhibit spending. It seems to me, therefore, that there is no argument whatever for the Amendment, or for the next or the one after that.
I should like to deal with a political point. In this country we have a custom whereby General Elections are held as a rule every four or five years. Members of Parliament are sent here to do what, on broad principles enunciated at the Election, seem to them to be right in all the circumstances of the time. We have had our politics for the time being. [An HON. MEMBER: "For how long?"] A man said to me the other day that it would be very cold if I were to go bathing off the pier at Brighton. I replied, "Yes, but I do not choose to do it and, thank goodness, I do not have to." It is equally true that it would be very unfortunate for the Government if we had an Election just now, but we do not choose to and, thank goodness, we do not have to. That is the whole point. It shows what good sense there is in our political system.
Finally, there is a psychological point. I remember the time when Sir Stafford

Cripps said that he would not devalue
the £ and that all would be well. Although many people tried to believe him, and I personally thought that he meant what he said—I am sure he meant what he said; he was doing his best—financiers throughout the world did not believe that he could do what he said. Men behind him in the House of Commons at that time did not support him.

Mr. H. Wilson: On a point of order. In view of the fact that on an Amendment relating to clothes pegs the hon. Member is introducing references to the devaluation of the £, could it be pointed out that Sir Stafford Cripps made neither of those remarks attributed to him by the hon. Member? If he wants to pursue this matter in the debate and quote the exact remarks of Sir Stafford Cripps, we would be happy to help him, but I think we would be out of order.

The Temporary Chairman: The hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) said that he was drawing to a close.

Sir I. Fraser: I am drawing to a close, Sir Austin. I am making a powerful argument which will influence both sides of the Committee, and I think that it will be shown to be relevant. The Labour leaders said that they would not devalue but the fact is that they were not believed. They were not believed because there were not men of sufficient courage in the House of Commons to support them.
My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said at Istanbul that he would take all steps that were necessary. What is the evidence that he has the courage and that there is behind him the strength to support him in his courage? The evidence is that he is willing and able to carry through the House such unpopular measures as those applying to the kitchen front. If he were to give way on these measures, he would be selling out the £ and for that reason he would not be believed throughout the world. It is my belief tha the result would be to produce exactly the chain of events which occurred under the Labour Administration and which all citizens in the land ought to avoid. It seems to me, therefore, that our duty is to support the Chancellor of the Exchequer wholeheartedly because we think that what he is doing is right.

Mr. Tom Brown: The hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) need not tell us to do our duty. It is being done every day in the industrial areas. In my judgment, an impartial observer of our proceedings during the last few days, or someone who had read an account of them, would be forced to the conclusion that we are a set of "crazy devils." We are crazy in the sense that we are attempting to do something, or are asking that something should be done, that ought to be done without our asking for it.
When the Chancellor of the Exchequer produced his Budget, last month, I listened to every word of his speech, and I had the courage, if any was required, to give expression to these words:
I am one who believes profoundly that if the Government propose to solve the financial and economic problems of this country by inflicting greater hardships on the poorer people then they are bankrupt of ideas."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th October, 1955; Vol. 545, c. 286.]
The truth of that statement has revealed itself more forcibly during the last few days, as we have debated this Finance Bill.
We are now discussing the imposition of taxes on some of the things which are essential in the everyday life of the working people. The Chancellor or his scouts have made a mistake, because there is one thing that they have missed out of the list. They have missed out the hooks upon which the clothes line has to be hung. They are not taxing the hooks, but they are taxing clothes props and posts.
It ought to be remembered that in the last few years a process of evolution has been working. Improvements are being made, and will, I hope, continue to be made, in the life and conditions of the ordinary folk. There has been an argument about steel clothes posts and about wooden clothes posts. Near where I live, in order to save steel we have begun to make clothes posts of reinforced cement. They are very popular in working-class areas. The result of these new tax proposals will be that whereas those clothes posts are now priced at 7s. 6d. and 8s. each, their price will become 10s. or 11 s.
That brings me to the point that the Government are imposing great hardships upon the ordinary people. If these people

are not entitled to some consideration or concession, who is?

Sir I. Fraser: How many clothes posts a year do people buy?

Mr. Brown: A lot depends upon the weather conditions and the position in which the posts are fixed. Sometimes they may last only a week or sometimes they may last for ten years or longer. I do not know whether the hon. Member has experience of these things, but I have.
This is a crazy way of doing business. There are many other things that the Chancellor could tax if he wanted to restore the economic and financial stability of the country. But the first thing the right hon. Gentleman did was to raid the kitchen. Then he raided the wash-house and now he has gone into the backyard and raided that. Tax upon tax is being placed on the ordinary people so that the Chancellor, as he is claiming, can restore the country's financial stability. What a crazy idea.
5.0 p.m.
I wanted especially to talk about the effect of the tax on baths. I do not know whether the Chancellor and his advisers at the Treasury realise that this tax will impose additional hardships on those people who live in rural and semi-rural areas, who do not have bathrooms and who are not blessed with the type of bath to which hon. and right hon. Members are accustomed. Such people bath in what is known as a galvanised tin bath. For the first time in the history of the country we are to tax the bath in which the miner or the industrial worker takes his bath. As I said before, it is a crazy way of raising revenue.
That is especially true when it is remembered that we are trying to develop, as the Ministry of Health is telling us, greater hygiene, greater cleanliness and greater sanitation. These things are advocated by Ministers here and in their other public speeches, yet the Chancellor comes along and says, "I will make it difficult for you to buy baths." To do that he slaps on baths a 30 per cent. Purchase Tax. I pay my tribute to those who, for years, have advocated pit-head baths which have been a boon and a blessing, but, to use a Lancashire expression, they have not stretched far enough and many pits in the rural and semi-rural areas, where there are many miners


living in old cottages built eighty to a hundred years ago, do not have pit-head baths. The miner must have his bath at home.
Many of those pits are reaching the end of their tether, as we say in Lancashire, so it would not be economic to build pit-head baths for them, but the men who work there still have to bath in the old-fashioned way and here we have a Chancellor in this enlighted age—and his hon. Friends agreeing with him—saying that to solve the financial and economic stability of the country we must tax baths and clothes props and everything which is used by ordinary people. I appeal to the Economic Secretary to the Treasury to consider those points before rejecting the Amendment.
The next point I want to make is on behalf of old-age pensioners. We are in a sorry plight that the country's financial position should be such that we have to tax smoothing iron holders. Again, those are a relic
of the past. In homes without electricity or gas, people must depend on what is known as a flat iron. Perhaps the Economic Secretary has never heard of a flat iron. I wonder whether he can tell me how many are in a set. [An HON. MEMBER: I bet that he has never been hit with one"]. I Can the Economic Secretary tell me how many polishing irons are in a set? He cannot do so, yet he says that the place where the hot iron has to be put must be taxed.
What despicable thinking there has been, what meanness, what parsimony of the men at the Treasury. Surely we have gone beyond the point where taxation must be borne by people's flat irons. The tax upon such things is anti-social, anti-Christian and the sooner the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the men at the Treasury begin to examine things from an everyday point of view the sooner we shall have fair play and justice to ordinary working people.
I want to ask a question about rubbing boards, washing boards, as they are known. Has the Economic Secretary seen a glass one? There is now a glass rubbing board which has a wooden surround. Is it to be taxed? The cone-gated glass type came into existence as a result of scientific discovery and is very

largely made at glass works in Lancashire. It is cleaner and more hygienic than the old type. Have the Chancellor and his advisers ever seriously discussed the effect that this tax will have on ordinary people and the housewives? I have a little experience of the work of Departmental Committees and Interdepartmental Committees.
We are boasting about increased prosperity and productivity, but who are the people responsible for the increased productivity? Who are the people who have laboured as a result of the Government's plea? They are not to be found on the Treasury Bench, but in the mines, in the mills and on the land. Those are the people who have played their part in the daily rounds and common tasks of life to help to restore this country's economic position. But the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government now say that as a reward they will tax baths, smoothing irons, rubbing boards, clothes pegs, cosmetics, etc., anything which ordinary people have to buy.
This is the most despicable thing that the Government have done, and they have done some damage. Unless the people rouse themselves to their individual responsibility, the Government will do a lot more. I emphatically protest against the imposition of the tax upon the things mentioned in the list issued by the Treasury.

Sir Leslie Plummer: The hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) suggested that hon. Members on this side of the Committee were exaggerating the importance of this tax and were using the same arguments as had been used on other Clauses in denouncing it as an onerous burden on the housewife. I assure him that it is a heavy burden on the housewife. In my view, it is a heavier imposition than is contained in many of the other Clauses which we have been discussing.
In my constituency, an ordinary London working-class constituency, the question whether fur coats, even cheap fur coats, shall carry an increased rate of Purchase Tax is of interest but not of the same interest as the tax on the com-modifies which we are now discussing. My constituency is not a slum area, but most of the houses, apart from those built since 1945, have no bathrooms. The


majority of the houses in my constituency do not have fixed appliances for bathing, this also applies to other London constituencies.
If hon. Members who are travelling by train through these boroughs will look out of the train window they will see hanging on the walls at the back of these houses three or four of these portable baths, according to the number of families occupying the house. After all, one can do without a fur coat but one cannot do without a bath. The women have to have bathtubs in order to bath their children. Mother and father use them on Friday nights. These bathtubs wear out, and to provide replacements for them is a constant drain on the purchasing power of the working class in London. Such a bathtub is not one of those things which they buy once in their lives. The fact that there is no room inside the house to accommodate the bathtub and that it has to hang on a nail, outside, in all weathers, means that there is steady and constant deterioration. This is the sort of article which a family has to buy several times in the course of the years.

Sir I. Fraser: I know the hon. Gentleman's district well, and similar districts, and I am glad to think that on almost every house there is a television aerial. I am glad that that is so, but how many baths does one have to buy for each television set that one has?

Sir L. Plummer: That interjection illustrates the difference between the two parties. If a man buys a bathtub and installs it in his house, he has to meet a considerable additional cost for installation. Furthermore, he is installing it in somebody else's house, and I do not doubt that, as a result of supplying the bath himself, he will have to pay more rent under the Housing Repairs and Rents Act.
In any case, where does he put the bath? I know of cases in Deptford of three or four families living in a six or seven-room house. Where would they put the bath? Many of our people take their baths in the room in which they live and they cannot possibly install a permanent fixture. There is a great deal of difference between the installation of a radio or television set and the installa-

tion of a bath. I am getting tired of this attack on people in London because they own the things which they produce. Why should they not have television sets? I must not be led astray into that argument, however, or I shall be out of order.
Purchase Tax on bathtubs is a continual drain on the pockets of these people. When the Departmental Committee of the Treasury advises the Chancellor and his hon. Friends that this tax ought to be imposed it does so because it believes it is statistically right, but it does not expect the Chancellor, who lives in an entirely different atmosphere from that of my constituency of Deptford, to understand the economics of the portable bathtub. I do not suppose the Economic Secretary or the Chancellor have ever thought of going to Deptford. I am sure that they ought not to do so without a police escort after this Finance Bill has become law and its full effects have been felt.
5.15 p.m.
I warn the Chancellor, moreover, that he will have great difficulty in his own constituency about this tax. I have a proprietary interest in the Chancellor, because he is my M.P. It is fair to say that I spend what spare time I have between Elections in trying to rob him of that privilege and in trying to see that somebody else represents his constituency in the future, but at the moment he is the M.P. for the constituency in which I live.
In my village there are about 100 houses—and this is in the very centre of the right hon. Gentleman's constituency; twenty or twenty-five of them have water laid on. That is all. After some centuries of being ruled by the squire in the countryside, main water has been made available only in the last month or so. In those cottages, which predominate in the constituency, there is no room for a bathtub.
The Chancellor does not seem to understand this. In going round his constituency he apparently has not faced the fact that agricultural workers, too, have to use portable bathtubs and have to take baths in their kitchens or their kitchen-living rooms. I am happy to warn the Chancellor that as a result of this imposition, which is as serious and grave for the agricultural worker in Saffron


Walden as it is for the industrial worker in Deptford, he will find that the opposition which we cook up for him month after month and year after year between Elections will be more successful than ever before.

Mr. Jack Jones: I should not have intervened, even briefly, in the debate had it not been for the speech by the wild man from Kidderminster, the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). He suggested that the way to solve the problem of this tremendous gap was to put taxation on wooden articles, but also to make people use less steel.
Wooden clothes pegs are going out of fashion, as are wooden clothes posts. The hon. Member for Kidderminster tried to tell us that a clothes post could be made
from scantlings or thinnings, which is sheer and utter nonsense. A clothes post is 10 ft. long—four inches by three inches—and it needs to be a big chunk of timber. We do not get clothes posts out of scantlings and thinnings. A 9 ft. piece of timber is required, and it rots continuously at the bottom, winter after winter, until the housewife says to her husband, "Get me some tubular steel and set it in concrete, so that I have something which will last. That will save money." That is the way to stop people from spending more than they need to spend—give them products which will last a long time rather than things which will last a year or so.
The hon. Member for Kidderminster talked about the importation of 2 million tons of steel a year. Anybody would think the housewives of Britain were to blame for that. In fact, we spend £75 million in dollars on imported steel each year. That is the cause of the gap—having to bring in imports which, if the Tories had planned for full employment in the past, we should not need to import now. They did not plan in this country to produce these essential things. Had they done so it would have obviated the necessity to import now.
I should be out of order if I continued to discuss the import of steel, although the hon. Member for Kidderminster got away with it. Every Monday morning, when the steel workers of this country start work, they have to earn £2 5s.

before they get a halfpenny, because £2 5s. per ton, imposed on the cost of steel produced in this country, is needed to meet the cost of importing American steel.
Wooden clothes pegs are going out of fashion. Let me tell the Chancellor what is happening. The people of this country are turning instead to the use of steel spring clips. Perhaps he has never seen one, but when he gets back to his office and I know he will go back there—he will see on the desk the clips which clip his papers together. That is the sort of tiny clip with which the housewives are replacing the wooden clothes peg. Steel tubes are being used as clothes posts and the textile hemp rope is now being replaced by synthetic covered steel wire.
The idea of compelling the use of less steel by imposing this tax is a complete myth. By increasing the cost of products which have been in use for so long, the Chancellor is increasing the need to find alternatives of a durable nature which, nine times out of ten, include steel. That is the sort of thing that is going on. To expect to solve the problem of the gap in this way is just nonsense. Whoever is advising the Chancellor is, from a psychological point of view, on the wrong horse.
The very men who last year produced 1¼ million more tons of steel, which could give us millions more buckets, baths and galvanised washtubs and rubbing boards, have been told that, because they are producing more steel, they can go home and tell their wives that they can pay more for articles made from that steel. The consequence of that is that the wives ask for more money. What happens?
Last week, the Executive of my trade union put forward a substantial claim for increased wages. The men on that Executive are not the wild boys of the trade union movement. They are, in the Chancellor's own admission, the most tolerant and steady trade unionists in the country. They are asking for less hours and for a lot more money.
One cannot argue as a Government that people should be tolerant and kindly and should hold back from making these claims when, at the same time, men are going home Friday after Friday with pay packets which buy less and less. It is the housewives of the country who, are prompting their husbands to ask for more and more. The psychological effect on


the men is not conducive to greater production.
I am not just filibustering to fill in time. I am concerned with this country of ours, and I put country before party any time. We are beset by keen competition. Germany is on the march in the production of steel. Russia, Belgium, Luxembourg, America, our Colonies, Australia, and even Egypt, are smelting pyrites these days. I say quite sincerely that the sort of humbug which
we are now discussing is not achieving that which the Chancellor wants to achieve. It is doing just the opposite; it is aggravating a position which is already sufficiently aggravated.
Having been a junior Minister, I know that once Governments make up their minds, they do not like to retract. Let the Chancellor have a careful look at this matter and tell the people advising him that they are doing the wrong thing. It is not making our people happier. Even the gipsy pedlar is upset about it. We started by considering lipstick and rouge, and yesterday went on to cups and saucers. I was not concerned about cups and saucers. The trouble is that there were too many mugs in this country at the last Election.

The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle): No one who has been a Member of this House for even as relatively a short time as I have would have any doubt that, in a crisis, the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) would always put country before party. I only hope that he will give those of us defending these measures credit for as much sincerity as he shows when he speaks.
This has been a most interesting debate, and the Committee may be relieved to hear that I do not intend to discuss either the correct pronunciation of Latin or the rightness or wrongness of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) in 1925, or devaluation in 1949. The hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) began this debate with what I thought was a most attractive speech, such as she always makes on these occasions. I have noticed several times when it has fallen to me to follow her, that she starts with a matrimonial metaphor, thinking, perhaps, of my bachelor status.
The hon. Lady asked how we reconciled this Budget and the measures which we are now introducing with our avowed policy of doubling the standard of living within twenty-five years. She went on to say that the people of this country want to enjoy the fragrance of the lilies while they still smell, which I thought was an excellent metaphor.

Mr. Jack Jones: While they can still smell them.

Sir E. Boyle: I am sorry if I misheard the hon. Lady.
If we are going to develop our standard of living, as we hope to do, it is absolutely essential to avoid inflation. That, indeed, is the main point of the measures which we are now introducing.
The hon. Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) asked me a number of questions about what was actually included in the Schedule. She is not in the Chamber at the moment, but, as these are rather detailed matters, I will write to her about them.

Mr. H. Wilson: I hope that, despite the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White), the hon. Gentleman will deal with the question of the gipsies, which is of widespread interest, and that he will tell us how the gipsies will register for Purchase Tax.

Sir E. Boyle: That is a point on which I am consulting my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. So far as I know, the Bill has not been translated into Romany.
There is one point I particularly want to make because it was raised by the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown), in a very sincere speech, and by the hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer). They both asked whether we realised what the impact of these measures would be on the poor people and the ordinary people of this country. I think that was the phrase used by the hon. Member for Ince. I say quite sincerely to the Committee that we certainly have this in mind, and I for one have absolutely no doubt as to how the ordinary and poor people of this country stand in regard to this matter. I say that because I was born and brought up in a village, and I know exactly the problems with which the hon. Member for Deptford was dealing in his speech.
This Budget is an honest attempt by the Government to deal with the question inflation, because we want to secure our position in world markets. If we fail to deal with it, then it will be precisely the poorest people who will suffer first. I do not deny that it is not easy to establish a direct connection between the tax on these particular items and our export trade. I do not dispute that at all, but the
Amendment which we are now
discussing is related to the general Government policy of restraining demand over the whole field. We believe that restraint of demand is essential if we are to have a secure surplus in our balance of payments. We honestly do not think that there is an adequate case for accepting Amendment to leave out "(r)."

Mr. R. Moss: I am very interested in the hon. Gentleman's argument about inflation. It seems to me that the Government's argument is that, by mopping up purchasing power through imposing taxation on the necessities of life, they will thus avoid inflation. But that does not follow, does it? I understand that at the present time there are wage claims involving a total of between £5 million and £6 million a week. Therefore, it seems to me that the Government are actually running into the great danger of bringing about the very condition which they hope to avoid.

Sir E. Boyle: I can only say that I believe that the measures which we are introducing will help to combat inflation for exactly the reasons given by the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) in 1946, and which were quoted the other night by my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Spearman) in what I thought was an admirable and courageous speech. These proposals are all part of the Government's general policy, and, for that reason, we cannot accept the Amendment.

Mr. H. Wilson: The speeches of the hon. Gentleman on successive Amendments are getting thinner and thinner. We are really getting less and less of an answer to the points raised. In particular, I thought that the answer to which we have just listened was no more than a repetition—I will not say a tedious repetition, because that would imply that

it was out of order, but a very short and brief repetition—of the sort of speech to which we have listened on almost every Amendment so far.
I personally—and I think that my hon. Friends share this view—am appalled that, for all his superficial economic brilliance, the hon. Gentleman has still not begun to appreciate the simple point that if he and his Government are trying to fight inflation, the worst possible way of doing it is to put up prices. That is a very simple proposition which I should
have thought the hon. Gentleman would have appreciated in chapter one of his economic studies. I am sorry that after we have had a day and a night of debate, the hon. Gentleman has not yet grasped the point.
5.30 p.m.
I can understand there being a number of quasi-technical points on which it may be difficult for the hon. Gentleman to give an immediate answer. For example, he may be in some doubt about whether corrugated glass scrubbing boards will carry the same rate of tax as other types. Since the Schedule refers to "scrubbing boards" I should have thought that they would bear the same tax.

Sir E. Boyle: I ought to have referred to that matter. The right hon. Gentleman is correct.

Mr. Wilson: I could have understood the hon. Gentleman being in difficulties over that matter.
I can understand the difficulties about gipsies. The hon. Gentleman said that he would consult the Financial Secretary. Why cannot he do so now? The Financial Secretary is present. Indeed, we are very honoured to have the Financial Secretary, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade here as well as the Economic Secretary. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where are the Law Officers?"] I do not see any Law Officers present.
On the question of the gipsies, whose palms the Chancellor has just crossed with Purchase Tax, it is very desirable that the Financial Secretary should, before we vote on the question, indicate to us—the whole Committee is interested —how the Board of Customs and Excise intends to operate the purely mechanical arrangements for the collection of Purchase Tax from the considerable number


of clothes peg manufacturers who are of the roving kind. It is not good enough for the Economic Secretary and the Financial Secretary to have a get-together long after the Committee has been asked to pronounce on the point.
I agree with the Economic Secretary on one point. The debate has been very interesting—up to now, at any rate. Obviously, its possibilities are not yet exhausted. One reason for its having been such a good debate was the excellent send-off which it had from my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann), who began her speech very helpfully, for the benefit of the Committee, by listing the items covered.
One of the rather unfortunate things about the way the Bill is drafted is that one has to do a great deal of reading and research to find out exactly what the mystic letters (j), (r), (t), (u), (v), (g), (h), (i), and all the rest refer to in the very complicated schedules now operated by the Board of Customs and Excise. I hope one result of the fact that we shall have spent several days and nights debating Purchase Tax will be that the Board of Customs and Excise will at some appropriate time get down to the task of consolidating the Purchase Tax schedules, for they are in a dreadful mess. The Committee owes a deep debt of gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Coat-bridge and Airdrie for having made so clear what the Amendment was about.
One thing that she made very plain—this has been sustained by all the speeches from the Opposition and one or two speeches from the Government benches, notably that of the hon. Member for Ton-bridge (Mr. G. Williams)—was that every single item in the list she read out is a household necessity. There is scarcely a household in the country—certainly, scarcely a working-class household—which does not need some of these articles frequently. It is no use hon. Gentlemen saying that one scarcely ever buys these things. These articles are being bought every day. If they are not being bought every day, I do not understand how the Chancellor hopes to obtain his revenue.
My hon. Friend referred to baths. I am glad she did. She was referring to galvanised and zinc baths, called, for short, tin baths. The point was taken up by my hon. Friend the Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer) in his reference to

housing conditions in his constituency, and also in the rather graphic passage, which I hope the Chancellor will read tomorrow, when he referred to housing conditions in rural areas in the Chancellor's own constituency.
It was fortunate, also, that my hon. Friend the Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) was called, for he was able to make the point, which I am sure many of my hon. Friends would like to make, about the relation of the tax to the households of mineworkers in areas where there are no pit-head baths. A very large number of coal miners and a much larger number of miners engaged in other extractive operations still have no pit-head bath facilities. Consequently, for them, as for so many other people, the tax is one on a physical necessity.
It is, in fact—I am surprised that more hon. Members opposite have not referred to this—a tax on cleanliness. I remember the eloquent speeches of Lord Chandos, who, as Mr. Oliver Lyttelton, in debates on Purchase Tax during the lifetime of the Labour Government, used to inveigh with great vigour against the tax on soap. We have already pointed out that the Government have increased the tax on soap in the Bill, but I should be out of order in developing that point any further now. However, it is in order to mention baths and washtubs.
A number of my hon. Friends have pointed to the consequences of taxing clothes posts, clothes pegs and clothes props. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) devoted practically all his speech to the subject of clothes posts. I wish he had been able to continue and deal equally thoroughly with the equally important subject of clothes props, to which there has so far been little reference. Everything my right hon. Friend said was characteristic not only of clothes posts but of every other item covered by the part of the Schedule to which the Amendment relates.
My right hon. Friend reminded the Committee—the Committee cannot be reminded of it too often—that this is the very list of goods from which Purchase Tax was removed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) in the 1951 Budget. As I have already pointed out, that was an


extremely tough Budget. It caused a great deal of controversy. It was a Budget related to the beginning of the armaments programme.
Indeed, the Economic Secretary himself has reminded the Committee that the economic situation at that time, as a result
of the war in Korea and as a result of the beginning of the armaments programme, was regarded by both sides of the House as being very tough. It was so tough that the Conservative Party, then in opposition, despite its habitual willingness to make party capital out of occasions of that kind, did not vote against the increase in Income Tax or the increase in petrol duty, the two major increases in that Budget.
Yet, at a time when conditions were so tough that Income Tax had to be raised to 9s. 6d. in the £, with the assent of the Conservative Party as well as the Government party of the day, my right hon. Friend took these items from the Purchase Tax schedules, again, I assume, with the assent of the Conservative Party, for it did not vote against that step. It must be, therefore, that the Conservative Party thought that, even with Income Tax at 9s. 6d. in the £, it was appropriate to remove Purchase Tax from these items. Yet
today, with Income Tax 1s. lower—in fact, in the very year in which Income Tax has been reduced—and after four years of much-vaunted prosperity, the Chancellor chooses to bring these items back into the Purchase Tax schedules. The point made by my right hon. Friend on that question was well worth making, and it is one to which we have had no answer from the Economic Secretary.
A number of my hon. Friends have pointed out the effect of this taxation addition on the cost of living. We still have not been told why, despite all the powerful arguments which have been deployed, the Government at this moment of time decided to put this range of goods into the Purchase Tax schedules. Why did they do it? Last night, in a very brief debate, we were discussing certain items which have never borne Purchase Tax at any time, but which the Chancellor at this moment is bringing into the Purchase Tax schedules. Now, we are debating a range of items from which the tax was removed at a very difficult time in this country's economic history.
Why have the Government clone it, and why do they stick to it? Is it—and we have asked the question a number of times—because they are so committed in their minds to the idea of a general sales tai; that they cannot bear to think of anything being left outside? I do not know if that is the answer or not. Indeed, I am doubtful about it, as the Chancellor has told us once or twice that he has no idea in his head of a general sales tax. I think I am fairly reporting what the Chancellor said. He said he was not committed to the general idea of a sales tax. So it cannot be that, if the Chancellor is correct.
Here is a point which I should like to bring to the attention of the Leader of the House, who I am sure will be gratified to hear it. In the debate on these Amendments, no fewer than three Conservative back benchers have supported the Government. That is unprecedented in all the days we have spent so for on the Finance Bill, and I am sure that the Leader of the House will be very gratified about it.

Mr. S. Silverman: Will my right hon. Friend make clear to the Leader of the House that it was general support for the Government? Nobody so far has had a single good word to say for any particular tax.

Mr. Wilson: No, I will be fair, despite the interruption of my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). It is true that the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) thought this was a good tax on the particular items we are now debating, and I gathered from the speech of the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) that he thought it was a good thing that the tax should be imposed on this particular range of commodities. From his speech—which went a great deal wider than you will be likely to allow me to go, Sir Rhys—it became quite clear that an important section of opinion in the Conservative Party is convinced that the future of the £ depends on a tax on clothes pegs. He made that absolutely plain.
I do not intend to follow the arguments which he deployed on the subject of devaluation in 1949, because that would clearly be out of order, but he said more than once that the reason for this step


is connected with the Chancellor's speech at Istanbul on 12th September, and that the whole future of sterling, and particularly the confidence of the foreign speculators in sterling, depends on their being assured that the Chancellor is backing that speech with action such as a tax on clothes pegs, clothes posts, clothes props, washtubs, pot scourers, ironing boards, shields and all the items covered by this Amendment.
From what the Economic Secretary said in his brief intervention, I think it is the Government's hope that this tax will have some direct result, if only in reassuring financial speculators that the Chancellor meant what he said at Istanbul. It is not designed, we have been told throughout the debate, to increase exports. Does anyone believe that the result of the imposition of this tax will increase our exports of zinc baths, washtubs, ironing boards, clothes lines, clothes posts, clothes pegs and clothes airers? Most of us take "clothers airers" to be "clothes horses," and it is stated that these "clothes airers" are those which do not incorporate any electrical or other mechanical attachments.
Does anyone believe that this tax will increase the exports of any single item in this group? So far as I know, we have a very small export trade—though perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade could tell us—in clothes posts, clothes pegs and all these other items. Therefore, I think the Economic Secretary will confirm that the purpose of the tax is not to increase direct exports of these particular items.
5.45 p.m.
Is it, perhaps, intended to help the export trade by discouraging the consumption of these items, so that some of the workers engaged in their production and perhaps some of the materials which are employed in producing all these items can be diverted to industries which do make a contribution to the export trade? That might be a perfectly respectable and logical argument, and no doubt the Economic Secretary would have used it if he thought it was relevant, but in fact that was the argument advanced by the hon. Member for Kidderminster. We all
paid particular attention to the hon. Gentleman's speech. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] It was a very short speech, but it really was interest-

ing as an indication why Conservative back benchers—tihe limited number who support the Government on Purchase Tax—actually do support the Government.
The hon. Gentleman's argument was quite specific. He entered into a discussion, through the Chair, with my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, and he said that if we have a tax on clothes posts, nobody will buy clothes posts any more, and we should be able to use the steel in the steel industry as scrap. My hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) completely demolished that argument as far as the steel industry is concerned, but let us assume that the hon. Gentleman was right about that. He did not explain, when I invited him to do so, what people are going to use for clothes posts if they cannot use steel ones. He wanted them to use timber posts instead, but there is a tax on timber, and exactly the same rate of tax. Therefore there is no incentive, in the imposition of this tax, to get the consumer to switch from the use of metal clothes posts to timber clothes posts.
Even if there had been, it is important to spend a little time on the speech of the hon. Member for Kidderminster, though he is not able to be here to hear the reply to it, because the whole tenor of his brief speech was to suggest that by putting a tax on these essentials, there would be a smaller consumption of these goods, and, in some way or another, a release of resources for more important work. I am sorry that the Economic Secretary to the Treasury did not put his hon. Friend right about this, because I would point out that the line of argument which the hon. Gentleman put in the debate today is completely at variance with the argument which the Economic Secretary himself put, very fairly and lucidly, on an earlier occasion.
I am sorry to have to do this at such length, but the hon. Gentleman did not trouble to explain this to the Committee, so I must, if I can, put the arguments in his head and use his own words. The Economic Secretary does not believe that the case for this tax is that it reduces consumption of these items, because when we were debating at an earlier stage the whole question of the 25 per cent. on essential goods, the Economic Secretary used words which I trust I shall be in order in quoting, because he was referring


to essential goods. Under the part of the Schedule which we are debating, an additional range of goods is put into this category. Therefore, I presume that I am in order, and, in any case, when you hear the Economic Secretary's words, Sir Rhys, you will recognise how relevant those particular words are to the items which we are now debating.
The Economic Secretary said:
I do not think that many hon. Members will seriously dispute that there are certain goods in the higher ranges of Purchase Tax where increased tax will result in some falling off of demand. We are not discussing these goods at this moment, but I do not dispute that there is a wide range of goods among those which we are
considering for which the demand will not be greatly affected either one way or the other by a change in Purchase Tax. I do not dispute that people will go on buying approximately the same proportion of brooms, brushes and saucepans as they might have done before.
He went on to say that the purpose of increasing the tax on these essential goods, and, ex hypothesi, the purpose of putting this new list of goods into the Purchase Tax schedules, is that we shall take purchasing power away from the buyers of those articles.
His argument was "You have got to buy these items, in the same way as you have got to buy bread. Therefore, if we put a tax on them and reduce your consumption, you will have less money available for other goods." In fact, the phrase the hon. Gentleman actually used was this:
But, as my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary pointed out earlier today, as a result of the tax being increased, or re-imposed over a wide range, there will be less purchasing power available for other things; and it is for this reason that I am sure the Budget will bring about some curtailment in consumer demand with, in the long run, a good result in relation to our balance of payments position."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1955; Vol. 546, c. 351–2.]
That was the argument of the Economic Secretary, and the hon. Gentleman confirms that I am right. I am glad that he and I are at one in understanding that argument, and that the hon. Member for Kidderminster was completely wrong in the reasons which he gave for supporting the Government. The hon. Member was supporting the Government, but for reasons diametrically opposite to those given from the Treasury bench.
The Government say that the tax on necessities cannot be avoided. What the Economic Secretary is saying—technically he is absolutely right—is that the tax on necessities is a direct tax. It is just as direct and as certain as if the Chancellor were to introduce a poll tax on every family in the country. It is a poll tax or an equal tax on all the items that we are discussing. This is a highly regressive tax, bearing much more heavily in proportion on the lowest income groups.
Why does the Chancellor have to do it? Why does he, at this moment of time and for the purpose of a beggarly amount of revenue—the Economic Secretary has not told us how much it is. Perhaps he will do so—have to put this range of household necessities into the tax schedule? He says he has to do it because the country is spending too much: we have to cut our spending down. The Economic Secretary says that we cannot make all the cuts in investment and therefore we must make them in consumption.

The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris): The right hon. Gentleman's remarks are strictly in order, but I must point out that all the general arguments will apply to each of the Amendments in turn. I would ask the Committee to limit the discussion on any Amendment to the articles mentioned in the Amendment and not to use on each Amendment the general arguments which apply to the lot.

Mr. Donald Chapman: On a point of order. We have been in considerable difficulty because the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) was allowed by the then occupant of the Chair to range over devaluation and the record of the Labour Government. With the change in the occupancy of the Chair the scope of the debate is changed again. It would be for the convenience of the Committee if we on both sides of the Committee knew how far we can go on these Amendments, because one occupant of the Chair should not direct us differently from another occupant.

The Deputy-Chairman: I cannot make any comment upon that matter. All the general arguments are in order and they apply to every one of these things. They can be repeated on every single Amendment, but I see no point in repeating all


the general arguments on every Amendment. I suggest that it would facilitate the work of the Committee if, once the general arguments have been disposed of, the arguments on each Amendment were confined to the articles referred to in it.

Mr. Victor Collins: You have just told us, Sir Rhys, that it is advisable for us to confine our arguments to the articles under discussion. May I point out that in every one of these debates either the Economic Secretary or the Financial Secretary has said, "It is all very well to talk about these items but you must consider them within the framework of the Government's intentions"?

The Deputy-Chairman: I am suggesting to both sides of the Committee that the discussion might be limited in the way I have proposed.

Mr. Dugdale: I understand that you have said, Sir Rhys, that it is not advisable that we should discuss on each Amendment the general situation. As the general situation is now being discussed on this Amendment, do we understand that we can continue discussion on those lines, quite apart from what we do on other Amendments?

The Deputy-Chairman: I have said that it is not out of order because the argument has a bearing on all the Amendments. I am suggesting that to facilitate the work of the Committee it might be advisable to limit the discussion to the particular articles in the Amendment.

Mr. H. Wilson: I am sure that the Committee is obliged for your guidance, Sir Rhys, I was obliged personally to you for saying that I was not out of order in the arguments I was presenting. It will be within the knowledge of the Committee that I have been extremely careful not to follow the line taken by the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale, who took the debate extremely wide, far wider than might be customary even on the Second Reading of a Finance Bill. One might have been justified in replying to some of the hon. Gentleman's more venomous observations but I resisted that temptation because I was sure that you would desire that we should keep our

observations closely related to the Amendment, which I have sought to do.
Some of the general observations, including those made in the brief intervention of the Economic Secretary, would be and have been in order on a number of the other Amendments. Indeed, practically all the Government's replies that we have had on the last ten Amendments have been the same. They have been a repetition of the argument that the Government want to deal with inflation. They have failed to tell us the relevance of what they are doing in the attack on inflation.
When the points of order began I was on the point of closing, and was referring to the necessity felt by the Government for dealing with inflation by their proposals, including this particular tax on clothes pegs and the rest. I do not know what the revenue will be. Perhaps the Economic Secretary can tell us. Apparently the Government do not know what revenue they are to get. That proves that the attack on the housewife's necessities is a doctrinaire attack. The Government do not care how much revenue they will get.
Will they get £1 million? Will they get £100,000. We really ought to have an answer to this point. I am surprised that, with three Treasury Ministers and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade on the bench, not one of them has the remotest idea whether the revenue will be £1 or £1 million. I am sure it would be desirable, and it might be in order, for me to seek to move some Motion, such as "That the Chairman do leave the Chair forthwith," or something equivalent, so that this information might be made available to the Committee. I do not see how the Committee can come to a decision on this Amendment if we do not know how much revenue is involved. I will not seek to do that, because I understand that urgent inquiries are being made. Perhaps before the Committee is asked finally to decide upon the Amendment we shall be told a figure.
I will for the moment make an assumption, and perhaps it will be corrected later. Let us assume that this range of tax will yield £500,000 to the Treasury. I have no idea whether that is correct. It may be far too much or far too little. None of the Ministers on the Front Bench has the remotest idea whether it


is more or less. If they have, they should get up and tell us. Let us assume for the sake of argument that it is £500,000. It is a pity that I have to make this assumption because it takes time. If the figure is smaller, my argument is all the stronger.
We are asked to put this extremely onerous system of tax—some of my hon. Friends have shown how onerous it is—on to a wide class of the community, to cream off—if that is the word—£500,000 of excessive purchasing power, at a time when the Chancellor refuses to take any action at all to deal with the waste of purchasing power on essential building projects. I will not pursue that argument although it is very tempting. References have been made in the debate to the fact that the Chancellor has found it necessary to impose a tax on entirely wooden clothes posts in order to save steel, yet he is not willing to save the steel that is apparently going to be wasted in the building of the new Conservative Central Office in Smith Square or on the rebuilding of the Carlton Club.

6.0 p.m.

The Deputy-Chairman: Order.

Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of order. The variations in the Rulings given from time to time from the Chair are becoming very confusing to those of us who, so far, have not taken part in any of these debates, perhaps in the expectation of having a general argument later. We cannot follow the Rulings. An hon. Gentleman says that the real purpose of this part of the Schedule is not to raise money, not to absorb purchasing power, but to save the consumption of steel. When my right hon. Friend answers that he can describe a better way of doing that, he is said to be out of order.

The Deputy-Chairman: I made my appeal to the Committee, and I made my position quite clear. I have nothing to add to that.

Mr. George Jeger: Further to that point of order. You gave your guidance to the Committee, Sir Rhys, on the narrowness of the debate, and for that guidance we are all indebted to you. But perhaps I could ask for further guidance as to how far we can go in a general discussion about these matters, when we have no information as to the actual saving—the actual amount in-

volved—and no answer given from the Treasury bench which would enable us to limit the discussion?

The Deputy-Chairman: That is not a point of order.

Mr. Wilson: From what you have said, Sir Rhys, I think it is clear that I should have been in order to take the discussion a little wider and to cite the building of the Conservative Central Office in Smith Square, and the Carlton Club as two examples of the inessential building at present going on. I shall not seek to weary the Committee by going into that at the moment, but I think that I should be not only in order but entirely relevant if I commented on one sentence from the remarks of the Economic Secretary.
The Economic Secretary seems to think that this question has been answered for all time by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) in 1946. I must say that that was not the impression created when my right hon Friend made those remarks in 1946; and certainly the present Leader of the House and many other hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite then seemed singularly unconvinced by his remarks. Nevertheless, truth has dawned on the Treasury Front Bench—even though it has taken nine years to do so—and now the only argument which the hon. Gentleman can advance in regard to this particular tax is that it must be right as a means of avoiding inflation because my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland said it was right in 1946.
I must point out to the hon. Gentleman that there has been a vast change in the economic position since the immediate post-war years. In 1946 the country and the world were facing a complete shortage of almost all essential raw materials. There was a vast amount of war damage to be repaired. I do not intend to develop that point, but I do say that in 1946 my right hon. Friend might well have felt that this tax was necessary in order to save steel. He could commend that proposal to the Committee then with all the greater confidence because, at the same time, he was taking every possible measure to ensure that scarce steel was not being wasted


He could come here, quite rightly, to say that he was intending to maintain the tax on clothes pegs, or on clothes horses—or on anything more directly using steel than do those things. He could do so with a clear conscience, and with the full support of, at any rate, our side of the Committee, because he was able to assure the Committee that no inessential building was causing the waste of steel. For the hon. Gentleman to use that argument when the Chancellor is permitting, indeed encouraging, the most fantastic waste of steel all over the country, makes his argument entirely inappropriate.
I have noticed urgent colloquies on the Treasury Front Bench, Sir Rhys. Perhaps if I give way we may get an estimate of the cost of the tax in relation to this particular Amendment.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. R. A. Butler): Has the right hon. Gentleman concluded his speech?

Mr. Wilson: I was giving way in order to hear the figures. I am sure that it would be for the convenience of the Committee to have them.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: On a point of order. There seems to be some private conversation going on between the Chancellor and my right hon. Friend. I should like to know what is happening.

Mr. Butler: It is not intended to be a private conversation. I was asking whether the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) had finished his speech. If so, I had hoped to make a short intervention to try to be of service to the Committee.

Mr. Wilson: If the Chancellor intends to intervene, I hope that it is in order to give the figures so that we can comment on them, but if he is willing to address the Committee on the matters raised by my hon. Friends and myself, my answer to him is that I have finished my observations—at any rate, for the present.

Mr. Butler: I do not want to intervene in order to prevent other hon. Members speaking, but I must point out the number of Amendments on the Schedule which remain to be debated, and if we are to get through the business it is rather important to come to a decision, at least on this Amendment. Under your Ruling, Sir Rhys, as general discussion is permitted,

there are at least six or seven other debates in prospect, and if we do not come to a decision on this one I do not see any end to the work—physically—of the Committee. That, I think, would be very disadvantageous to hon. Members. It is for hon. Members to choose. I am in the hands of the Committee.
We have a great many more Amendments which raise points very similar to this, the Chair, in its wisdom, having called all the Amendments in groups so that they can be discussed. I think it really would be for the convenience of hon. Members—if we are to run our business without undue inconvenience and without sitting too late—to come to a decision on this Amendment before turning to the next matter. Perhaps hon. Members will reflect on that suggestion. I promise that it will very much affect their own happiness and welfare, because we must get the business through. I very much want to make progress and to save hon. Members trouble. We may hear more of that later, so I hope that we can make progress now.
I want to make one or two observations on what has been said, because the discussion has been so worth while that I feel that I should. I will be quite frank with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) and say that I am not in a position to give the exact costings of this particular head. I inquired before coming here. The reason is that the Amendments are broken up in a peculiar form on the Notice Paper, and in one which is not
always adopted by the Customs and Excise. If I were to force the answer from the Customs and Excise it might not be an exact one, so I have decided to take the responsibility of not giving the exact figure for paragraph (r).
The big group which we discussed yesterday—pottery—was about £7 million, and that is about half of the £15 million. The figure of £15 million is what comes from this particular group of what are called pots and pans, which has been the most unpopular. One has therefore to divide roughly £7 million between the others. We can cost some of the others, such as brushes which we discussed last night and one or two other items a little more accurately, but the rest of the £4 million or £5 million must be divided among the items affected by the other Amendments.
If, by the end of the Committee's sitting, I could get what the Customs and Excise believe it could stand by as a figure I would give it, but I would rather not force my advisers to give me a figure which cannot be exact because of the way it is divided up. I think that it is my duty to defend my advisers, who have served me so well, by not forcing them to give a figure which cannot be accurately substantiated. We discussed that before coming here today. These last-minute rushes to the Box were only an attempt to see whether a last-minute estimate was possible.
The other point was about the gipsies. I thought it important that I, as Chancellor of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom, should answer the point. Under the £500 exemption from Purchase Tax they will, I think it may be said, in most if not all cases, escape Purchase Tax, partly owing to their general occupation and partly owing to the fact that the value of their wares is below the £500 exemption limit. As this paper will not be translated into the language which they are said to understand, I think it likely that many of their goods, especially in the form of clothes pegs, will escape from the Purchase Tax.
On the other general points raised, I would make this appeal. I realise that in supporting me with such vigour, clarity and loyalty, my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) ranged over some rather wide subjects. Nevertheless, the very width of the
vision which he has shown indicates the depth and importance of his support of the Government. I will not follow him in his arguments because if I did so I would be out of order, but I would say seriously to the hon. Member for Coat-bridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann)—I have heard most of the speeches, and such time as I have been out of the Chamber has been purely on business—that when she refers to doubling the standard of living I still stand by that view. It depends almost entirely on two things: first, if we keep up our production, and, secondly, if we defeat inflation.
The object of these measures—a point which one has to repeat in every one of these Amendments—is that there is too much purchasing power about, and it is

this general excess of purchasing power which is holding back our exports and, at the same time, sucking in a large volume of imports.

The Deputy-Chairman: I must make the same appeal to the Chancellor as I made to the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson). It is true that we can have a general debate on every one of these Amendments, but I am seeking to restrict it, and I intervened for this purpose when the right hon. Member for Huyton was speaking. I am making the same appeal to the Chancellor.

Mr. S. Silverman: Mr. S. Silverman rose—

Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: Sit down.

Mr. Silverman: With respect, Sir Rhys, I find it very difficult to follow what is expected of the Committee. I understand that the Government's defence on every one of these Amendments will be that this tax is required because of our general economic policy and for general reasons. Therefore, it would be in order, if there were only one Amendment, for someone to say, "We do not like your general policy and it will not produce the result that you want." My difficulty is to understand how there can be two arguments, one against each other, and why, if it is in order to adduce such an argument on one Amendment, it is not equally in order on all the others. It is all very well to say that there can be a general debate on the Question, "That the Schedule be the First Schedule to the Bill," but by that time all the Amendments will have been disposed of.

The Deputy-Chairman: I can see no confusion at all about the appeal that I have made. I have agreed that the general arguments are in order upon each one of these Amendments, but the general arguments are the same in each case. Therefore, I am suggesting to the Committee that it would be for the convenience of both sides of the Committee, once the general arguments are disposed of, to limit the arguments to particular articles, in order to facilitate business.

Mr. H. Wilson: It was in the hearing of the Committee that the hon. and gallant Member for Knutsford (Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport) intervened when my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) rose


to his feet just now, and, in those raucous tones which he uses in place of a voice, he enjoined—I do not know if it was you yourself, Sir Rhys, or my hon. Friend—to sit down. If it was meant to apply to you, I suggest that it was grossly out of order, and even though he meant to say, through you, Sir Rhys, to my hon. Friend that he should sit down, I suggest that it is not in accordance with the rules of the House that he should have done so.

The Deputy-Chairman: Certainly not, but I did not hear that.

Mr. Silverman: Further to that point of order, Sir Rhys. May I add that if you did not hear it, neither did I.

Mr. R. A. Butler: In view of the general charity exhibited, and in view of your Ruling that I cannot refer to it—

The Deputy-Chairman: The Chancellor has misunderstood me. I did not say that he could not refer to it. I merely made an appeal.

6.15 p.m.

Mr. Butler: I am not sure what I am to say. I simply used the Government's argument on these Amendments, and you then said that I was not in order. I therefore do not know how I am to proceed with my argument.

The Deputy-Chairman: I raised this point first of all when the right hon. Member for Huyton was speaking. The general argument upon all these Amendments is precisely the same, so that it would be repeated upon each Amendment. All I am saying is that although that argument would be in order, it would merely facilitate the work of the Committee if it were not repeated upon each Amendment. I suggest that the argument upon each Amendment should be restricted to what is contained in the Amendment.

Mr. Denis Howell: Further to that point of order, Sir Rhys. Is it not a fact that the Government spokesmen, one after another, have been able to advance only a general argument and not a particular argument?

The Deputy-Chairman: I made that point quite clearly to all Members of the Committee. It is for hon. Members to decide whether to accept it.

Mr. Butler: I think that the best thing we can do, in the circumstances, is to call it a day on this Amendment and try some of our arguments of a general character on the next one. I think it would be impossible for me to adduce any further arguments on these items beyond the arguments which I have already adduced. As I think it will make a great deal of difference to the convenience of hon. Members if we can make a little progress, and as these issues come up on each Amendment and I am unable to accept the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie, the most sensible thing we can do is to come to a decision on this Amendment and then try our hand at the other Amendments, some of which will give rise to other economic viewpoints than the one which I have put forward.

Mr. H. Wilson: I do not wish to delay the Committee, nor do I wish to go into any of the wide issues upon which you have given guidance to the Committee, Sir Rhys, but I should like to press the Chancellor a little further on one or two of the points relating to this Amendment.
First, gipsies, I am sure, will be pleased with the right hon. Gentleman's assurance—one might almost say incentive—to them as to the way in which they can carry out their business. It does not seem from what the Chancellor has said that many gipsies will be likely to maintain their records in such a way as to enable Customs and Excise to get on to them.
But what this Committee is concerned with even more than with the economic prosperity of the gipsies, is the question of the yield to the Revenue of this particular form of tax. The Chancellor was honest with the Committee. He said that he did not know, and that he was not going to "chance his arm" on an estimate. He was not going to put the officials in a difficult position by giving a figure that they could not be certain about, and, therefore, he said he could give no estimate to the Committee. But he did volunteer the fact that the yield on pottery would be £7 million. We are not debating pottery, and his answer was like the case of the undergraduate who said, "I do not know the answer to the scriptural question, but the names of the Kings of Israel are as follows." It is


not very helpful to the Committee to know that the tax on pottery will yield £7 million, because we want to know what will be the yield on clothes horses, clothes pegs, clothes posts and those other items which are becoming familiar to hon. Members on both sides of the Committee.
I am not going to press the right hon. Gentleman to give a figure in which he has no confidence, because that would be unfair to him and to Customs and Excise, but I do think that the Chancellor's inability to give a figure at all brings up a new point in the discussion to which we should draw attention before we are asked to vote. We have thought until now that the Chancellor needed a particular volume of new revenue in order to deal with an inflationary situation—I will not deal with the general argument—and in deciding what particular tax to apply, he looked at each one of them, and came to the conclusion that the great burden placed on the housewife and others was worth while because of the revenue it gave him and the attack which he could make upon inflation thereby.
After three hours of debate, we thought the Committee would be in a position to say, "Is this burden worth while because of the attack which it makes on inflation? "—that is, if we accept the Chancellor's general argument about inflation, which I do not. If the right hon. Gentleman could tell us that this is essential, because it knocks £10 million off the inflationary figure, that would be one good reason for it; but if he says that it will result in a saving of £10, then it would not be worth while and would impose a great burden. The Chancellor not only cannot give us a figure, but, what is much more serious, he did not have a figure in mind when he came to the decision to impose this tax.

Mr. R. A. Butler: Yes, I had the figure of £15 million in mind for the whole of the pots and pans, and I have in mind a figure of between £250,000 and £500,000 for this group; but I cannot give the exact figure. The whole figure for pots and pans is £15 million. The whole figure for Purchase Tax is £75 million, which is what I thought was about necessary—adding it to the Profits Tax which we shall be discussing early next week—to take off from the point of view of

wages and incomes, and generally what is called the mopping up of purchasing power. I do know all my figures except in the case of this one, where I should not like to give a figure.

Mr. Wilson: That is a pity, because it is exactly the case of this one which we are debating, and not the £15 million as a whole. But I will not press the point. It seems to me that my first wild guess, when I said £500,000, is as good as the latest one from the right hon. Gentleman.
What the Committee now must decide, whether the figure is £250,000 or£500,000, is this: whether—if one accepts the Chancellor's general view that £15 million in round terms is necessary—it ought to be £14¾ million with no tax on the housewife, of £15 million with the tax. On the basis of the arguments we have heard this afternoon, and the failure of the Government to put up any counter-arguments, I do not think there can be any doubt but that the decision should be that the smaller figure is the right one, and that we should not impose this burden on the housewife.

Mr. Dye: I have tried to attract the attention of the occupant of the Chair, so that I might say a few words in this debate. I have endeavoured to do so, because it seems to me that the main burden of this tax will fall on the country housewives. I say that it is a raid on the housekeeping allowances of those housewives who have not the advantage of modern amenities in their homes or who have not the advantage of high wages being earned by their husbands.
These thrifty housewives who do their own housework are being made to pay a tax of 30 per cent. on some of the essential things which they need to do that work. Time after time the question has been asked, why this particular tax? Surely, the answer is obvious, that the Government desire all housewives to send their washing to the laundry; that somewhere behind the Government is a vested interest in one or other kind of garment normally washed by a housewife in her home which desires that it should be sent to the laundry.
That may be all right for housewives in the towns, where there may be a laundry in the next street, but what


happens in the country villages between Yarmouth and Norwich where housewives have no laundries, or, if they do desire to send these things to the laundry, they have not sufficient income to pay the laundry charges? The purpose behind this Government tax on washing and drying utensils must be to try to force housewives to send their washing to the laundry.
There is even a tax on babies' baths. The Government believe that babies ought to be sent to the laundry as well. We seem to have people in this Government who are extraordinarily inexperienced in the domestic things of life. The Chancellor, of all people, representing, as he does, a large rural part of Essex, ought to have known that a tax which may raise £300,000 in a year, but which falls more particularly upon the country housewife whose husband may have a low income, would never be worth while. Neither can it be said that these housewives are creating an extra demand upon the goods of the country because of the amount of spare money which they have to spend. The housewife who does her own washing is generally the mother of a large family, or she may have been used to doing her own washing for many years. Surely such a tax as this should not be imposed upon those people.
The right hon. Gentleman answered the question about gipsies who make pegs and sell them from door to door. But there is another important aspect of this matter. Linen posts and linen props and
washboards are made by country craftsmen. We have been encouraging our country craftsmen to do this work. What will their position be? Will they have to pay Purchase Tax on the things which they have made in small workshops in the villages of Essex and Norfolk and other country districts? Has the Chancellor given attention to this point?
These people buy their timber locally and will have to distinguish between what is to be used for a linen post and what

may be used for a gate-post, and it seems to me that there will be great confusion among the small country craftsmen who supply these things in addition to many other things. We have had no statement from the Chancellor or anyone else about how these things are to be distinguished and taxed. One cannot describe one piece of timber as being for a certain purpose and another piece as being for another purpose. It seems that instead of getting somewhere between £250,000 and £500,000 from this tax the Chancellor will be losing tax, and obviously, there will be confusion about it. Is not this an encouragement to people to do what used to be done: to go by night and help themselves to a linen post from the spinney up the road?

6.30 p.m.

This is the kind of thing that ought never to have been taxed. It will cause irritation to countless housewives in country districts. It is ridiculous to suggest that by putting on this tax the Chancellor is rescuing the country, saving the £, or helping the balance of payments. These people, who have been thrifty, are among the best who live in the country. To say that they should send their washing to laundries or pay this tax brings the whole idea of Purchase Tax into contempt in their eyes. That is quite clear to any meeting of women Conservatives in any part of the country. They know that the Chancellor is just being ridiculous by imposing this tax on housewives. They say—and say with emphasis—that they cannot canvass for the Tory Party in the rural districts again. That, of course, may be an advantage to certain people.

By these demands and by raiding housekeeping money of the people the Government are bringing the whole thing into contempt. I hope that the Committee will reject the tax and support the Amendment.

Question put, That "(r)" stand part of the Schedule:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 262, Noes 222.

Division No. 59.]
AYES
[6.32 p.m.


Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.
Ashton, H.
Barber, Anthony


Aitken, W. T.
Astor, Hon. J. J.
Barlow, Sir John


Alport, C. J. M.
Atkins, H. E.
Barter, John


Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.
Baxter, Sir Beverley


Arbuthnot, John
Baldwin, A. E.
Beamish, Maj. Tufton


Armstrong, C. W.
Balniel, Lord
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)




Bennett, Dr. Reginald
Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macolesfd)
Page, R. G.


Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)
Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)
Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)


Bidgood, J. G.
Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)
Partridge, E.


Biggs-Davison, J. A.
Hay, John
Peake, Rt. Hon. O.


Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel
Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.
Peyton, J. W. W.


Bishop, F. P.
Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel
Pickthorn, K. W. M.


Body, R. F.
Heath, Edward
Pilkington, Capt. R. A.


Boothby, Sir Robert
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Pitman, I. J.


Bossom, Sir A. C.
Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.
Pott, H. P.


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.
Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)
Powell, J. Enoch


Boyle, Sir Edward
Hill, John (S. Norfolk)
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Braine, B. R.
Hirst, Geoffrey
Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)


Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)
Holland-Martin, C. J.
Profumo, J. D.


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.
Hope, Lord John
Raikes, Sir Victor


Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry
Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.
Ramsden, J. E.


Brooman-White, R. C.
Horobin, Sir Ian
Rawlinson, P. A. G.


Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)
Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence
Redmayne, M.


Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.
Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Burden, F. F. A.
Howard, John (Test)
Remnant, Hon. P.


Butler, Rt. Hn. R.A.(Saffron Walden)
Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)
Renton, D. L. M.


Campbell, Sir David
Hughes, Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.
Ridsdale, J. E.


Carr, Robert
Hughes-Young, M. H. C.
Rippon, A. G. F.


Cary, Sir Robert
Hulbert, Sir Norman
Robertson, Sir David


Channon, H.
Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark(E'b'gh, W.)
Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)


Chichester-Clark, R.
Hyde, Montgomery
Robson-Brown, w,


Cole, Norman
Hylton-Foster, Sir H. B. H.
Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)


Conant, Maj. Sir Roger
Iremonger, T. L.
Roper, Sir Harold


Cooper-Key, E. M.
Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)
Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard


Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.
Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)
Russell, R. S.


Corfield, Capt. F. V.
Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)
Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.


Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)
Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)
Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.


Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hn. H. F. C.
Johnson, Eric (Blackley)
Sharples, Maj. R. C.


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
Kaberry, D.



Crouch, R. F.
Keegan, D.
Shepherd, William


Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)
Kerby, Capt. H. B.
Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)


Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)
Kerr, H. W.
Smithers, Peter (Winchester)


Cunningham, Knox
Kershaw, J. A.
Soames, Capt. C.


Currle, G. B. H.
Kirk, P. M.
Spearman, A. C. M.


Dance, J. C. G.
Lancaster, Col. C. G.
Speir, R. M.


Davidson, Viscountess
Langford-Holt, J. A.
Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)


D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Leavey, J. A.
Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard


Deedes, W. F.
Leburn, W. G.
Stevens, Geoffrey


Dodds-Parker, A. D.
Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)
Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)


Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.
Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)
Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)


Doughty, C. J. A.
Lindsay, Martin (Sollhull)
Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)


Drayson, G. B.
Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.


Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)
Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)
Storey, S.


Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.
Lloyd-George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G.
Studholme, H. G.


Duthie, W. S.
Longden, Gilbert
Summers, G. S. (Aylesbury)


Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David
Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. w.
Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)


Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.
Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)
Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)


Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Thomas, Rt. Hn. J. P. L. (Hereford)


Errington, Sir Eric
Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)
Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)


Erroll, F. J.
Maclean, Fitzroy (Lancaster)
Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)


Farey-Jones, F. W.
Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)
Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)


Fell, A.
Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)
Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.


Finlay, Graeme
Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)
Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)


Fisher, Nigel
Maddan, Martin
Touche, Sir Gordon


Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.
Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.
Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.


Fletcher-Cooke, C.
Marlowe, A. A. H.
Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.


Fort, R.
Marples, A. E.
Vickers, Miss J. H.


Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmlie &amp; Lonsdale)
Marshall, Douglas
Vosper, D. F.


Freeth, D. K.
Mathew, R.
Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)


Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.
Maude, Angus
Walker-Smith, D. C.


George, J. C. (Pollok)
Mawby, R. L.
Wall, Major Patrick


Glover, D.
Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.
Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)


Godber, J. B.
Medlicott, Sir Frank
Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)


Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.
Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.
Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.


Gough, C. F. H.
Molson, A. H. E.
Watkinson, H. A.


Gower, H. R.
Moore, Sir Thomas
Webbe, Sir H.


Graham, Sir Fergus
Morrison, John (Salisbury)
Whitelaw, W.S.I.(Penrith &amp; Border)


Grant, W. (Woodside)
Nabarro, G. D. N.
Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)


Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)
Nairn, D. L. S.
Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)


Green, A.
Neave, Airey
Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)


Gresham Cooke, R.
Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)
Wills, G. (Bridgwater)


Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)
Nicolson, N. (B 'n' m' th, E. &amp; Chr'ch)
Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)


Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)
Nield, Basil (Chester)
Wood, Hon. R.


Gurden, Harold
Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.
Woollam, John Victor


Hare, Hon. J. H.
Nugent, G. R. H.
Yates, William (The Wrekin)


Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)
Oakshott, H. D.



Harris, Reader (Heston)
O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Mr. Richard Thompson and Mr. Robert Allan.


Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)
Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)








NOES


Ainsley, J. W.
Griffiths, William (Exchange)
Pearson, A.


Allaun, F. (Salford, E.)
Hale, Leslie
Peart, T. F.


Allen, Scholefleld (Crewe)
Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)
Plummer, Sir Leslie


Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.
Hannan, W.
Popplewell, E.


Awbery, S. S.
Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)
Price, J. T, (Westhoughton)


Bacon, Miss Alice
Hastings, S.
Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)


Balfour, A.
Hayman, F. H.
Probert, A. R.


Bartley, P.
Healey, Denis
Proctor, W. T.


Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.
Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)
Pryde, D. J.


Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)
Herbison, Miss M.
Pursey, Cmdr. H.


Benson, G.
Hewitson, Capt. M.
Rankin, John


Beswick, F.
Hobson, C. R.
Reeves, J,


Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)
Holman, P.
Reid, William


Blackburn, F.
Holmes, Horace
Rhodes, H.


Blenkinsop, A.
Holt, A. F.
Robens, Rt. Hon. A.


Blyton, W. R.
Houghton, Douglas
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Boardman, H.
Howell, Denis (All Saints)
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.
Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)


Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)
Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)
Ross, William


Bowles, F. G.
Hunter, A. E.
Royle, G.


Boyd, T. C.
Hynd, H. (Accrington)
Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.


Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth
Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)
Silverman, Julius (Aston)


Brockway, A. F.
Irving, S. (Dartford)
Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)


Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.
Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)


Brown, Thomas (Ince)
Jeger, George (Goole)
Skeffington, A. M.


Burke, W. A.
Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)
Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)


Burton, Miss F, E.
Johnson, James (Rugby)
Slater, J. (Sedgefield)


Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)
Jones, David (The Hartlepools)
Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)


Callaghan, L. J.
Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)
Snow, J. W.


Carmichael, J.
Jones, Jack (Rotherham)
Sparks, J. A.


Champion, A. J.
Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)
Steele, T.


Chapman, W. D.
Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)
Stewart, Michael (Fulham)


Chetwynd, G. R.
Kenyon, C.
Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. (Ipswich)


Clunie, d.
Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.
Stones, W. (Consett)


Coldrick, w.
King, Dr. H. M.
Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.


Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)
Lawson, G. M.
Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)


Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch &amp; Finsbury)
Lee, Frederick (Newton)
Stross, Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent, C.)


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)
Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.


Cove, W. G.
Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)
Sylvester, G. O.


Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)
Lewis, Arthur
Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)


Cronin, J. D.
Linton, Lt.-Col. M.
Taylor, John (West Lothian)


Crossman, R. H. S.
Logan, D. C.
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Cullen, Mrs. A.
MacColl, J. E.
Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)


Daines, P.
McGovern, J.
Thornton, E.


Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.
McKay, John (Wallsend)
Tomney, F.


Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)
McLeavy, Frank
Turner-Samuels, M.


Davies, Harold (Leek)
MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)
Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn


Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)
Mahon, S.
Usborne, H. C.


de Freitas, Geoffrey
Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)
Viant, S. P.


Delargy, H. J.
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)
Warbey, W. N.


Dodds, N. N.
Mann, Mrs. Jean
Watkins, T. E.


Donnelly, D. L.
Mason, Roy
Weitzman, D.


Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)
Mayhew, C. P.
Wells, Percy (Faversham)


Dye, S.
Mikardo, Ian
West, D. G.


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Mitchison, G. R.
Wheeldon, W. E.


Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)
Monslow, W.
White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)


Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)
Moody, A. S.
White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)



Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)
Morrison, Rt. Hn. Herbert(Lews'm, S.)
Wigg, George


Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)
Mort, D. L.
Wilkins, W. A.


Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)
Moss, R.
Willey, Frederick


Fernyhough, E.
Moyle, A.
Williams, David (Neath)


Flenburgh, W.
Neal, Harold (Bolsover)
Williams, Ronald (Wigan)


Forman, J. C.
Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)
Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)


Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)
Oram, A. E.
Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)


Freeman, Peter
Orbach, M.
Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)


Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.
Oswald, T.
Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)


Gibson, C. W.
Padley, W. E.
Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)


Gooch, E. G.
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Winterbottom, Richard


Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.
Palmer, A. M. F.
Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.


Greenwood, Anthony
Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)
Yates, V. (Ladywood)


Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.
Pargiter, G. A.
Younger, Rt. Hon. K.


Grey, C. F.
Parker, J,
Zilliacus, K.


Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)
Parkin, B. T.



Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Lianelly)
Paton, J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:




Mr. Arthur Allen and Mr. Short.

Mrs. Freda Corbet: I beg to move, in page 11, line 9, to leave out "(t)".

The Chairman: I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee if, together with this Amendment, we take the other two Amendments to line 9, in the names of the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), to leave out "(u)" and the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) to leave out "and (v)."

Mrs. Corbet: These small letters are rather incomprehensible until one turns either to the Bill itself or to the Schedule. It will be found that "(t)" includes something known as a pot scourer, and also steel wool. I believe there are some hon. Gentlemen in the Committee who may not realise the significance of the pot scourer. I can assure the Committee that, small though this article may be—insignificant enough, I should have thought, to escape the Chancellor's all-seeing eye in his arrangement of the articles which were to be taxed—it is one of great value in the home. It has a magic touch, exceeding that of the much-publicised Vim. During the war, if there was any article which I was ever afraid of being without, it was a pot scourer.

Mr. Leslie Hale: What about a pot?

6.45 p.m.

Mrs. Corbet: Before the advent of the pot scourer the life of the housewife was, indeed, one of drudgery. More elbow grease was applied to the scouring of a pot than, probably, to any other household task. It was mainly ineffectual elbow grease until the pot scourer came along. When it came, not only could we look forward to doing the washing up, but we could, with some degree of confidence, send our husbands into the kitchen to do the washing up. I would warn the men of the community that they must watch with the utmost circumspection this design of the Chancellor upon their opportunities to help their spouses.
The housewife is a very economical person. She lets her brooms wear out until she really has to replace them, and there is a very great temptation to her to let her pot scourers wear out, until they, too, consist of merely a collection of wire, some of which is often left in the sauce-

pan. A pot scourer is not a very expensive thing. Before the war, it cost about 2½d. and, in terms of present-day values, I suppose the current price of 7½d. for the cheapest copper wire one is about right. But we shall now be in danger of having another 2d. added to that price, which will make the cheapest pot scourer about 9½d. The housewife looks at every penny much more carefully than any Chancellor of the Exchequer looks at his millions. She is the nation's housekeeper, and she must have very great regard to the cost of every article which she uses.

Mr. Lewis: Does my hon. Friend appreciate that although the subject that she is mentioning is a very interesting one, which affects all housewives, not one hon. Lady is sitting upon the benches opposite?

Mrs. Corbet: I thank my hon. Friend for pointing that out. I notice that one hon. Lady has now arrived on the opposite benches. I am sure that she will be able to bear out my statement about the importance of this little piece of magic which costs so little and which is now threatened by the Chancellor with having its price raised so that people will think twice before buying it.
I was about to say, before my hon. Friend interrupted me, that the pot scourer has been looked upon with favour by the public, to such an extent that manufacturers have branched out, so to speak, and today, instead of being made of little bits of copper wire threaded through some woven material, they are likely to consist of nylon or plastic material. These are very valuable and very lasting, although they are rather more expensive. The price varies between 1s. and 1s. 3d. I have not yet decided to go in for one of these. The 1s. variety would, naturally, attract Purchase Tax of about 3d. Housewives think in terms of such amounts. If an article costs
less than 1s. we feel we can indulge in purchasing it, but if it costs nearer 2s. we look at it many times before we purchase.
One variety which gives me the
greatest pleasure is called "Goldilocks." It is most attractive, and furnishes my sink, and it gives me the greatest happiness indeed to use little "Goldilocks." All these threats by the Chancellor to the pleasure of the housewife and of the


pseudo-housewife when he takes his turns of duty at the sink are matters of the very greatest importance to us.

Mr. Hale: I am listening with the greatest interest to my hon. Friend, and I should like her to clear up a query for me. Whenever I am sent to the kitchen to do the washing up I am presented with a piece of stick with something which looks like wool on the end and I understand that there are other of these articles which have copper wire or steel instead. I am generally instructed not to use them in case I scratch the pots and pans and I should have thought that they would have done china a good deal of damage. Afterwards, I am presented with a cloth designed with the apparatus of a cocktail party, which, I think, must have been designed by the Ministry of Supply, if not the Ministry of Economic Warfare before it became defunct, to encourage reluctant husbands to get the pots dry. Are we taxing all of them?

Mrs. Corbet: As far as I can make out, almost anything the housewife has to use in her household, or which could relieve her of much of the drudgery of her work has come under the eagle eye of the Chancellor and is taxed. I think so, and I challenge the Chancellor to say that it is not so. Housewives will find the prices of these things going up—

Mr. Hale: We shall not wash up.

Mr. Parkin: We shall save flakes.

Mrs. Corbet: Pot scourers are small but very useful and, therefore, valuable articles. I cannot see how our export trade will be encouraged or our imports reduced or the inflationary situation put right by the tax on these articles. I ask the Chancellor to tell me what the tax does. Can he tell me exactly what it amounts to, how much he will get out of it and in what way it will ease the economic situation or his task in dealing with it?
Pot scourers were once made from the shavings of metals, which was an excellent way of using up waste materials. Some scourers are made of metal of some kind or another. Some, for instance, are made of copper. Others are not of metal at all, and, increasingly, housewives favour the nylon varieties. If the Chancellor wants to tax those made of metal it is possible

for him to do so, and still leave the nylon and plastic varieties untouched by tax. I should have thought that the value of the tax to the Chancellor would have been insignificant on these little articles of such valuable household use.
I have made some inquiries of the medical profession, and I am assured by one
well-known member of it, who is also a Member of this Committee, that the proper cleaning of pots is essential to hygiene and health. I am as ignorant of medical science as the male members of this Committee are of pot scourers, but I am assured by that doctor that if food is not cleaned off a pot bacteria form upon the residue of food upon it, and that however much one may cook or boil food in that pot, and although the cooking and boiling will destroy the bacteria on the remnants of old food in the pot, the toxins are not destroyed. Thus, food cooked in an unclean pot is likely to be poisonous and to cause illness. This is a very serious matter indeed.
It is necessary only to recall the days before pot scourers were in existence to assure the male Members of the Committee—it is not necessary so to instruct the lady Members—that to cleanse a pot properly without such a scourer is almost a physical impossibility
I must challenge the Chancellor, or the Financial Secretary, whom I have known so long and with whom I have had such friendly relations, to let me know what effect the imposition of tax on steel wool will have on our imports and exports, the financial situation, and all the rest of it. It is a little device by which we can clean saucepans, especially aluminium ones, which are not noticeably responsive to metal polishers but are exceedingly responsive to a little rubbing with steel wool.
All of us like our kitchens to be brightly polished and like to know that housewives are keeping them brightly polished, and this is a useful bit of equipment for that purpose, and it would be a sorry thing if that bit of equipment were made dearer to buy than it need be. The extra cost of these articles because of the tax, although it may be, comparatively speaking, only a little in each case, adds up to a considerable amount. It has already been decided to tax many articles of the housewives' equipment.
We have just had a very lengthy debate about the imposition of tax upon some articles essential in the household. We are now considering articles which are a woman's tools of trade. A woman is entitled to have the best possible tools in the best possible state, and ought not to have to go on using tools in such condition that her work is made much harder than it need be. We concede that industry must have its tools. I ask the Committee to concede to the housewife her tools of trade.
I could, of course, go into the arguments which have been dilated upon at considerable length in the debate on the previous Amendment, but I have no wish to do so, for I think that my hon. Friends and I have a very good case for this Amendment. I would ask the Chancellor whether he intends to make any exceptions whatever in imposing this iniquitous tax levied on the housewives. Would he reconsider the matter and see whether the pot scourer, the useful, magic pot scourer, and its accompaniment of steel wool, can be exempted from the tax? If he will, the housewives, who are now prepared to use language that is anything but Parliamentary about the Budget, may have a kind word to say—especially for the Financial Secretary, if he will yield this favour I am asking. Other hon. Members will, no doubt, be talking to the Committee about pastry boards, rolling pins, seives and sifters. These are all things very vitally affecting the housewife, the management of her money, and the running of her house.

7.0 p.m.

Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: We on this side of the Committee have been taxed more than once about not giving vocal support to what the Chancellor is doing. I propose to be an exception. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood) yesterday prophesied that no Member on this side of the Committee would support the Chancellor vocally any more. Actually, his prophecy has been already twice upset, and it will be upset more before the evening has gone.
As has so often been said during the debates, part of the object of these Purchase Tax provisions is to increase exports. The hon. Lady the Member for

Peckham (Mrs. Corbet) has referred to objects like pot scourers. These may be small matters, but every one of the items mentioned in the schedule and the three Amendments which we are
discussing use imported materials. Pot scourers use copper, pastry boards use imported timber.

Mr. A. Blenkinsop (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East): As a matter of information, the pot scourers which I use, and which many other hon. Members on this side of the Committee use, are made of plastics.

Mr. Gresham Cooke: Not at all. The pot scourers to which the hon. Lady was referring were made of copper.

Mrs. Corbet: Some of them.

Mr. Gresham Cooke: There are other things named in the schedule, such as pastry boards, which are made of imported timber. It is perfectly justifiable to suggest that the industries which make
these things should make some contribution to exports. When the home market for these articles is contracting, as it will no doubt contract slightly under the influence of Purchase Tax, the manufacturers are not going to take that lying down. They are going into the markets of the world to see if they cannot export some of these articles.

Mr. Hale: The hon. Member has raised two difficulties which I do not follow. First, he said, that we were using imported materials. Surely we do not import materials to make pastry boards, chopping boards and so on. I should have thought that for those things we did not have to use the very highest quality imported timber. Is he suggesting that we are helping our dollar earnings by exporting dozens of little "Goldilocks" to America where they have washing machines in pretty well every house and are quite capable of organising their washing up? If not, where can we export them to? Where does he suggest that we shall be able to send chopping boards to such an extent as to earn dollars?

Mr. Gresham Cooke: In the first place, much of the timber used for household goods is deal, which is imported from abroad. Secondly, I do not say that we are going to export—

Mr. Chapman: If the hon. Member proposes to use a deal chopping block, I pity him. A chopping block has to be made of good, hard wood. I do not know from where he got his information.

Mr. Gresham Cooke: I was talking about ordinary household goods. I was not saying that necessarily we were going to export these things to America, to the dollar area. We can export a lot of them to the sterling area, and so help with our own overseas currency. I should not like these things to be despised as earners of foreign currency.
A few years ago I went to the Ministry of Supply to see whether I could obtain more wire for a particular product in which I was interested. On the list of users of wire, when wire was in very short supply, were bird cage manufacturers. I at once asked, "Why continue to make bird cages when wire is in such short supply?" I was told that bird cages were a very good export line and were earning a number of dollars.
Although these schedules, in general terms, may be unpopular, I have no doubt that they will encourage manufacturers to seek fresh markets overseas, and in that connection I read in the Press only a few days ago:
One of Britain's biggest pot-and-pan makers has decided to send all their goods abroad because of Mr. Butler's emergency Budget…
which puts 6s. in the £ Purchase Tax on household goods.
The firm, Panette Holloware Limited, of Accrington, Lancs., turns out 40,000 aluminium kitchen utensils every week.

Mr. Blenkinsop: We are discussing pot scourers. We are not discussing pots and pans. We have already had a most interesting discussion on those things. Nor are we discussing bird cages. I cannot see any mention of bird cages in the schedule, and I should like your Ruling, Sir Charles, as to whether this discussion is in order.

The Chairman: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for his assistance. I have been trying for some time to keep the debate in order. If we are to roam over the entire subject of kitchen utensils, it will take us a very long time to finish the debate. I ask hon. Members on all sides to keep to the point. We have spent a long time on these matters.

Mr. Gresham Cooke: I was using this only as an example of the sort of thing that could be done by way of exports.
The article goes on to say:
So far 75 per cent. has gone for export. Now the lot will go. Mr. James Owen, managing director of the firm said yesterday that the firm does not expect to lose money by selling all its products abroad.

Mr. M. Turner-Samuels: Is not it a fact that those are established export products, and these matters which we are supposed, and I say advisedly "are supposed" to be discussing, have nothing to do with those at all.

Mr. Gresham Cooke: Those presumably were established export products because someone, in the first instance, went out and sold the goods in the rest of the world. I am suggesting that there is no reason why manufacturers of these products cannot go out and sell them in the rest of the world.

Mr. Turner-Samuels: Does the hon. Member wish to say that a pot scourer is a world export beater?

Mr. Gresham Cooke: I am not saying that by itself it is a world export beater. We are discussing a much wider series of things than pot scourers. We are discussing the things mentioned in one schedule and in two or three Amendments.

Mr. Turner-Samuels: Does a rolling pin hit the point on the head?

Mr. Gresham Cooke: The further argument against these Purchase Tax increases, put by the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) and the hon. Member for Northfield (Mr. Chapman), is that they tend towards inflation by putting up prices. We heard from the Chancellor that they will make a difference to each family of only 4d. or 5d. a week. I cannot see how any wage demands can be justified on the basis of such a small increase. If a demand for higher wages is based on that ground when Purchase Tax is increased, what is to happen to wages when Purchase Tax is decreased? Will there be an agreement that wages should come down when Purchase Tax is reduced?
When one puts these small increases in Purchase Tax against the £1 a week average increase in earnings last year it seems ridiculous to suggest that the new taxes will have any inflationary effect at


all. It would be quite wrong to attempt to justify any inflationary wage increases on the basis of such small figures. This schedule is only an example of what is being done also in other schedules in encouraging manufacturers to contract sales in the home market and go out into the world's markets to sell their goods.

Miss Margaret Herbison: I have been amazed by the speech of the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke). One would imagine that we were going to save the whole economic future of the country by taking pot scourers from the British housewife and selling them in some market so nebulous that the hon. Member was unable even to mention it. It seems to me that the hon. Member had decided that he was going to make a speech only because he and other hon. Members opposite had been taunted a little from this side of the Committee. He then rose and did not apply his mind at all to the Amendments that we are discussing.
It is difficult to imagine that any argument could be put forward by the Chancellor to justify Purchase Tax on the household goods with which the Amendments deal. I cannot imagine any housewife having a row of pot scourers in her kitchen. She will have one only. I cannot imagine her laying in a great stock of steel wool. I rarely use a pot scourer. I prefer to use steel wool for all the jobs which my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mrs. Corbet) described. Even then, when I use steel wool for all those things, I do not hoard it. As I am sure every housewife does, I buy only the quantity that I need.
If we accept the fact that the housewife keeps in the kitchen only the quantity of these articles which is absolutely necessary, we must conclude from the speech of the hon. Member for Twickenham that we are asked to take even those necessary items from her, send them abroad and allow her pots and pans to get filthy. In the Scottish Grand Committee we have been spending morning after morning discussing the Food and Drugs (Scotland) Bill, a Bill intended to ensure that we have clean food and get rid of food poisoning and all that that involves. How is it possible for the Government to put forward a Bill which is supposed to ensure clean food when, at the same time, they

take from the housewife the tools required to ensure that that food will be clean? This tax will not help any export drive.
The housewife will insist upon having the necessary pot scourer and steel wool, but the tax might have a bad effect on the catering industry. One of the aims of the Food and Drugs (Scotland) Bill is to ensure that catering establishments provide clean food. The owners of those establishments might well try to save a little money on the articles which we are now discussing if the Purchase Tax is imposed, and we shall not then be sure that the food supplied in those establishments will be as clean as it ought to be. This is one of the most miserable taxes of the many miserable taxes that the Chancellor is imposing upon the housewife.
7.15 p.m.
What is the Chancellor hoping to do by putting a tax on pastry boards, which we in Scotland call baking boards? I should have thought that in his effort to keep down inflation he would have wanted to encourage every young married woman to buy a baking board, a rolling pin and all the other articles which the right hon. Gentleman is taxing, so that she might be able to provide the best food for her family at the cheapest possible price. The tax will make that more difficult. This is a most miserable and mean thing for the Chancellor to do.
Sieves for use with coal and cinders are also taxed. I represent in the House of Commons thousands of miners. Time and again I have spoken in this Chamber about the waste of coal. I know from what I see in the mining villages of my constituency that no one should encourage the waste of one ounce of coal. It is far too dearly won. It costs so much in human misery that no Government should do anything that would lead to its being wasted. Did the Chancellor or the Financial Secretary have any discussions with the Minister of Fuel and Power?

Mr. Lewis: Or with the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro)?

Miss Herbison: I sometimes feel sorry for the Minister of Fuel and Power at Question Time.

Mr. S. Silverman: Where is he?

Miss Herbison: I have no idea where he is, but I should have hoped that he would have been here to support us in the effort to have these sieves freed from tax.
I ask the Financial Secretary to consider this matter very carefully. I come from a home in which, as long as my father was a miner, we always had a plentiful supply of coal, but we always had a sieve for use on the cinders, not because it saved us much money but because we realised how dear was the price of coal in terms of human suffering.
It is a shocking thing for the Chancellor to put Purchase Tax on sieves. I am sure that if the right hon. Gentleman had consulted the Minister of Fuel and Power, sieves would not have appeared in the list of those things that are to bear Purchase Tax. I beg the Financial Secretary to say for the first time in this debate that at last he agrees that there is good sense in what is being said on this side of the Committee.

Mr. S. Silverman: My hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison), in a characteristically able and persuasive speech, has nevertheless done considerable injustice to the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke), for the hon. Member was making a very gallant attempt indeed to be loyal to his Government. The fact that he was batting on a sticky wicket was obviously as plain to the hon. Gentleman as it was to everybody else. He was doing his best, and if the best thing he could find to do was to divert the attention of the Chairman and of the Committee from the Amendment under discussion in order to talk about other things, maybe he was wise in his generation.
No one would attempt to say, and the hon. Gentleman himself would not attempt it, that a tax on pot scourers was essential to the development of our export trade. He knows that it is not. Otherwise, of course, there would have been a tax on pot scourers long ago. Even this Government would have put it on before the General Election, instead of after, if it had really been necessary in order to support the export trade. They did not do so because we have been told time after time that the only purpose of this emergency autumn Budget is to deal with

a situation that arose after the General Election.
That is the defence of the Chancellor. But does the hon. Gentleman suppose for a moment that our difficulties in the export trade developed only after May, 1955? Of course not. He knows perfectly well that there is only one defence for the proposals of the Government. It is a plausible defence. It is even an arguable defence. It is a defence, however, that does not vary from Amendment to Amendment. It is the same defence in all of them. Neither the Chancellor of the Exchequer nor the Economic Secretary, or the Financial Secretary, has in any one of these cases sought to suggest for a moment—and one recognises their candour about it—that any one of these impositions can be justified on its own merits.
No one has said that people use too many pot scourers. No one has said that a pot scourer is a luxury which no one ought to be able to afford. No one has said that it takes too much out of our essential resources; that to conserve our manpower people must use fewer pot scourers. None of them has said that. None of them will say it. The attempt of the hon. Gentleman to support his Government on these questions was far more to be praised for its courage than for its wisdom, because he attempted to put up for them a defence of which, to do him justice, the Financial Secretary would be the first and the most eloquent and the most powerful denouncer. He does not accept a word of the defence that the hon. Gentleman put up on his behalf.

Mr. Gresham Cooke: I have not heard my right hon. Friend say that yet.

Mr. Silverman: I agree that possibly I am committing what was once described as the most gratuitous form of error, that is to say, prophecy. Yet I am willing to chance my arm. Indeed I will give way if the Financial Secretary thinks I am on a false point and, when he replies to this debate, will defend the tax on pot scourers on the argument put forward by the hon. Gentleman. I will sit down and let him say so now.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry Brooke): With the leave of the Committee I will make my own speech in my own time.

Mr. Silverman: That is exactly what I have just said on behalf of the right hon. Gentleman. It did not need his intervention to say that he will make his own defence in his own way and will not rely on the defence offered on his behalf.
What is really his defence? It is the same as in all the other cases. I have not intervened on any other Amendment throughout the Committee Stage of this Bill and I do not propose—as at present advised, at any rate—to attempt to catch your eye again, Sir Charles, because I know that where the Government have only one defence, and where every hon. Member on this side of the Committee knows the answer and wants to express it, it is fair that everyone should have an opportunity to do so.

Mr. Lewis: While we all appreciate sincerely the great generosity of my hon. Friend, is he not aware that we know that there are few hon. Members on this side of the Committee who can speak as eloquently as he does, and that we hope he will take heart and speak on other Amendments.

Mr. Silverman: My hon. Friend had better wait until the end of my speech before he ventures to praise it.
Seriously, I want to use this opportunity to examine what is the real defence of the Government to the attack made upon them in these matters and what is the answer to it. What the Government are really saying is that people are living too well and that they are doing so because they have too much money. That is putting the case of the Government in much simpler and more forthright terms than they have ever put it themselves. They talk about purchasing power and about mopping it up and they say that we are living beyond our means. What they mean is that people have too much money in their pockets and that the Government must devise a way of draining it off without giving them any advantage from it.
Again, I will readily give way if the Financial Secretary wishes to deny it. All this business of taxing household articles, not because they are luxuries but because they are not, can be justified only on the basis that people have too much, not of the luxuries of life but of the necessities of life; that the ordinary things which make life livable, the basic necessities, are now being enjoyed by too many people

in this country. There may well be different opinions about whether that is true or not, but if that is the view of the Government, and if they still think that we are to be governed by a representative democracy in a Parliamentary system, it is reasonable to ask why that was not the message which they preached from every hustings at the last General Election.
I do not want to pursue that point, which has been fairly made, but I say that if the party opposite believe that people are too well off they should not go about the country claiming votes on the ground that they have made people better off than ever before. It is cheating to go to men and women and say, "Vote for me because I have made you better off than ever you were before. I have removed austerity from your lives, I have brought more goods into the shops, you are able to buy things now that you have never been able to buy before, and you are able to buy them because of the success of Tory policy. Conservative freedom works." Then, when they have obtained power on that basis, to come to the House and say, "Yes, people are better off than ever they were before. They are altogether too well off. Let us have an emergency Budget to put it right." That is hypocrisy.

7.30 p.m.

Captain Henry Kerby: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I never said anything of the sort, but I got a majority of 20,000 votes?

Mr. Silverman: I congratulate the hon. and gallant Member on having avoided the pitfalls into which every one of his colleagues fell. However, I am not talking about the individual adventures of the hon. Member. I do not think I had ever heard of him before the General Election—

Mr. Farey-Jones (Watford): Mr. Farey-Jones (Watford) rose—

Mr. Silverman: Let me deal with one hon. Member at a time. The hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Farey-Jones) will have his opportunity in a moment. I am concerned with, and am attacking, the Conservative manifesto which was addressed to all the electors during the last General Election. If the hon. and gallant Member for Arundel and Shoreham (Captain Kerby) contracted out of it, so much the better for him.

Mr. Farey-Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman deny that the vast majority of the people are better off in 1955 than they have ever been?

Mr. Silverman: The hon. Member will find it possible to understand the argument if he will have the patience to listen to it and make the necessary intellectual effort to follow it. He asks whether I admit that the people are better off in 1955 than they were in, for instance, 1945. Of course they are, but the difference between the two sides of the Committee is that this side rejoices at their increased prosperity while hon. Members opposite think that it is a catastrophe.
The Government have made no secret about it. They have brought in an autumn Budget which is expressly and deliberately to make people less prosperous than they were in April. If that is not the Government's defence for the autumn Budget, what in the world is their defence? Every single line of every single speech made by Government spokesmen since the Budget proposals were announced has been a reiteration of this very point—too much prosperity. The Government have said that we are living beyond our means and that they must attack all the necessities in everybody's home, even the homes of the poorest, because even the poorest are living too well. If the people are living too well, surely it was a fraud upon the electors to get their votes and support by representing that the Conservative Party had put them in their prosperous condition, and then use the power so obtained to destroy their prosperity.
I would say quite seriously to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that we are living in a world in which representative democracy is more critically on trial than it has been at any other period in world history. We all unitedly object—

Mr. Gresham Cooke: On a point of order. Is a discussion about world democracy in order on an Amendment dealing with pot scourers and pastry boards?

The Temporary Chairman (Mr. James H. Hoy): I allowed the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) to reply to interjections from the other side of the Committee, but I would remind the Committee that we are dealing with three specific Amendments, and I should

be very grateful if hon. Members would confine their arguments to those Amendments.

Mr. Silverman: Following the Ruling given by two of your predecessors in the Chair, Mr. Hoy, that, while the argument was equally in order on each Amendment, it was obviously undesirable to have the same general debate on each Amendment in turn. I promise that I am not going to develop the argument on each Amendment in turn. I want to do it on this occasion, and this occasion only. In doing it on this one occasion, I should like the indulgence of the Committee, in so far as I may have it, to do it at least adequately.
While we are abundantly and overwhelmingly right in attacking every system in the world which wrings power from the people by force, oppression and tyranny, we are not entitled to do that if we ourselves tolerate Governments which wring power by deceit and fraud. To swindle the people into giving one their support is no more commendable and no more democratic than to deprive them of their liberties by force.
Let it be granted—I understand that there is no serious contest about it—that the Government's real defence for the Budget and every proposal in it is that people have too much money and it is necessary in some way to withdraw the money from them. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite talk about inflation and say that it would be very much worse—I want to state their arguments fairly— for ordinary people to allow inflation to proceed than to correct and control inflation, even by these harsh methods, that in the end ordinary people will benefit more by accepting the discipline imposed upon them in this way than if it were not imposed and inflation were allowed to gallop ahead.
That is the Government's defence. What is meant by it? What harm does it do an ordinary person with a modest income if inflation takes place? The harm it does him is to make the value of money less, because prices increase and he can buy less with his money, and the real value of his wages is reduced. The Government say, "Let us prevent inflation in order to preserve the real value of wages." How do the Government propose to preserve the real value of the ordinary person's wages? They


propose to do it by taxing everything he has and raising the price of everything he will buy. To prevent the value of a man's money from being reduced by inflation, they achieve the magnificent result of reducing it by taxation. From the point of view of ordinary people, why is taxation better than inflation? Why should taxation be preferred to inflation?
The Government have chosen the worst method of dealing with the problem. One of the worst elements of inflation is that once it is allowed to proceed, it goes on apace. As prices go up, wages go up, and as wages go up, prices go up, and the inflationary spiral goes on. What is the good of trying to control inflation by a method which inevitably produces inflation? When the Government say, "People have too much money; let us drain it off by taxation," that is the concession which Tory doctrinaires make to the advance of Socialist theory. In the old days they would not have attempted to control inflation by this method. They had a much simpler method then. It was a much more direct method. They had a method which they would like to apply now but dare not. What they would like to do is to reduce wages.

Mr. Farey-Jones: Did not Sir Stafford Cripps do precisely that by his devaluation of the £?

The Temporary Chairman: Order. I should be glad if hon. Members would confine their argument to the three Amendments with which we are dealing.

Mr. Silverman: I shall not be longer than a few minutes, but as far as the hon. Member for Watford is concerned, I do say, with deep grief—which, after all these years is still felt on this side of the Committee and by many hon. Members opposite, too—that Sir Stafford Cripps is no longer with us; we are dealing with the situation as it is in 1955. In an ironic way I am gratified to see how many Conservative disciples our old friend Sir Stafford Cripps now has and to remember how it would have delighted and cheered him in the most difficult times through which this country has ever lived to have heard some of the encomium now paid to him by those who most bitterly opposed him. Whatever Sir Stafford Cripps may have done, we are dealing

with what the Government propose to do in these circumstances of today.
What they are proposing to do by an indirect method is what they would very much prefer to do by a direct method, if they had the guts to try. They are reducing wages, not by reducing the actual amount of money, but by deliberately reducing the amount of the things that the wages will buy. If one transfers the attack on wages from the economic sphere to the political sphere, then one has no right to complain if the defence of the wages takes the political form that one has made necessary. If one attempts to reduce wages directly in the economic field the workers now have the economic weapons with which to defend themselves.
Do not let the Government imagine for a moment that the workers will refuse to defend themselves by the weapons with which over the long years they have equipped themselves for the purpose, merely because the Tory Party changes its attack from an economic to a political attack. That is really what we are dealing with here. We shall go on as long as we may attacking each one of these additional taxes in turn, because they are mean, because they are cruel, because they are tyrannical, because they are reactionary, and because ultimately they are futile. We shall go on doing that, but let it not be thought, as we are dealing with these pettifogging imposts in turn, that we have lost sight of the wood in dealing with the trees.

Mr. Michael Stewart: I am happy to have caught your eye, Mr. Hoy, although we have not yet been refreshed by a further speech from the other side of the Committee.

Brigadier Terence Clarke: On a point of order. Two hon. Members on this side of the Committee did rise.

The Temporary Chairman: I called the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) and the two hon. Members on the other side of the Committee who rose will get their turn to speak, if they rise.

Mr. Stewart: We listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke). It was a tragic speech and I used the word "tragic" in its strictest sense, for Aristotle says that tragedy is


that which arouses pity and terror, and the hon. Member for Twickenham succeeded in arousing pity on this side of the Committee and evident terror on the other. He addressed to the Committee one general argument to which, since he has developed it, I will reply, without transgressing the bounds of order, before turning in some detail to the subject of the Amendments.
He suggested that after all these additional taxes were not sufficient justification for any demand for wage increases. It was common form during the General Election, whenever any of the speakers for the party on the other side of the Committee referred to the constantly rising cost of living, for the stock Conservative reply to be that wages had gone up as well. The country was repeatedly instructed to believe that it did not matter if the cost of living went up, because the position could always be remedied by putting up wages.

Mr. Gresham Cooke: The hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) seems to have missed my point. It was that earnings have gone up considerably more than the cost of living and so this small increase in the cost of living, if there is to be one, will be nowhere near the amount by which wages and earnings have increased.

7.45 p.m.

Mr. Stewart: But we have not yet ratified this increase in the cost of living. If we do, it will be a further addition and it will be impossible for the party opposite, on the line of argument they adopted at the Election, to object if anyone suggests this as a reason for a further rise in wages.
I remember addressing, towards the end of the General Election campaign, a meeting in Chelsea Town Hall, not an area usually friendly to the Labour Party. Towards its close the meeting took the form of a service, with a sentence from me and two sentences from the audience, an antiphonal response from the Conservative section of the audience and one of the most constantly repeated was, "What about wages?"
We were assured that one of the blessings of a Conservative Government was that one did not have restrictions and that everybody could ask for as much as they liked and get as much as they could.
That is the lesson which the party opposite has been teaching the nation. It is no good now complaining, if people who do not happen to belong to the social class of Members opposite, chose to listen to what they have said and better the instructions.

The Temporary Chairman: It may be that I was in error in allowing the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) to reply to the interjection of the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) but I remind the Committee that we have three Amendments before us.

Mr. Stewart: I will now strictly confine myself to the subjects of the three Amendments, pot scourers, rolling pins, pastry boards, and one which is very difficult to say, coal and cinder sieves and sifters. Like some other speakers, I want to give special emphasis to the question of pot scourers.
My hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mrs. Corbet) made a most interesting and compelling speech, but I feel compelled to disagree with her on one point. She seemed to think that this was a matter of greater interest to lady hon. Members than to the rest of us. My own feeling, however, is that this is very much a husbands' as well as a wives' question. After all, in the business of preparing and clearing up meals it is generally, although not universally true, that the wife is a better cook than the husband. A reasonable division of labour, therefore, is that she should do that more skilled work and the husband should play his part in perhaps laying the table and washing up, including the saucepans.
Everyone knows, of course, that there is a great deal of difference in doing the washing up without washing up saucepans and in doing it with the saucepans included. I am bound to say that I have always taken the view that if I am to do the saucepans, I must have an adequate implement for the purpose.

Mr. Moss: Is it not essential, if one is helping one's wife in that way, to leave the saucepans to soak, and then it is a very good excuse for not doing them at all?

Mr. Stewart: If I may say so, I am acquainted with that.
It depends what the saucepans have been used for, and I want to address myself very seriously to this subject. There are, of course, certain cooking operations which do not require the use of a pot scourer. If one is boiling an egg, it is unnecessary; but if one is cooking potatoes or other vegetables, a pot scourer may be required afterwards. There are cetain other operation. I have noticed with some interest that some of the most tasty things that can be prepared in saucepans seem to be the most sticky—I do not necessarily mean sticky to eat, but with an amazing capacity for adhering to the saucepan.

Mr. H. Wilson: Is not my hon. Friend making a rather unwarrantable assumption when he says that one does not need a pot scourer when boiling an egg? That assumes perfect success in the culinary operation, and it is probably within the recollection of several hon. Members that they have started to boil eggs, have forgotten that they were boiling and have then needed a pot scourer. I would further point out to my hon. Friend that if he looks at the affairs of the Gambols in the Daily Express this morning he will see that that is the exact fate of Mr. Gambol when doing home cooking.

Mr. Stewart: I overlooked that because I have developed a practically infallible technique of boiling an egg to exactly the point to which an egg should be boile—[HON. MEMBERS: "What is it?"] I should be departing from the undertaking, which I gave to you, Mr. Hoy, if I developed that too far.
Surely it is well known that there are a number of things which, when prepared in a saucepan, are particularly adhesive, and one is then faced with the problem of how to get them off the saucepan. The pot scourer is particularly useful for that. It can be made of metal or of nylon or of plastic.
What are the alternatives to pot scourers? There is the very lengthy process of leaving the saucepan to soak, but one may well want to make further use of the saucepan before that process is complete. One may have a kitchen of limited size or have other reasons for not possessing a whole army of saucepans. There is also the unsatisfactory alternative of taking a knife to the saucepan. That is extremely unsatisfactory for it is

liable to leave a scratched surface which may harbour germs.

Mr. Lewis: And ruin the knife.

Mr. Stewart: Another possibility is that one may, with a bad conscience, put the saucepan away inadequately cleaned. For reasons mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members for Peckham and Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison), that is a dangerous and insanitary practice.
What does the Financial Secretary hope to gain by increasing the tax on an article which is so much a household necessity? Although I am developing my argument mainly with relation to pot scourers, the same line of argument applies to other articles with which the Amendment is concerned. Let us consider pot scourers, however, for a start. Is it suggested that this tax will save metal? In that case, the tax on nylon or plastic pot scourers cannot be justified. Indeed, it has been suggested, I think correctly, that metal pot scourers, being made from shavings and waste, are a by-product of the industry and that it is not true that if we devote less metal to pot scourers we shall have more for bird cages or whatever it is that hon. Members opposite think they will use to retrieve the economic situation of the country.
Is it suggested that people will not buy fewer pot scourers but, having to spend a few pence more on them, will buy less of something else? I think that might be argued, but it means that it is quite simply, in its crudest form, a regressive tax. If they used that argument the Government would say, "There is too much money about. We will mop some of it up and we will deliberately arrange the method of doing it so as to make sure that we mop some up from the smallest incomes we can find."
Is it suggested that the tax will save money? Is it seriously supposed that, as a result of an increase in the price, people will buy fewer pot scourers, less steel wool and fewer pastry boards? There are two situations in which that might happen. One has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North, who suggested that very large consumers of these articles, such as catering establishments, might think it worth while to economise on them—and that is peculiarly socially undesirable.
Secondly, some families might say, "Because this article will cost a few pence more, we must be a little more careful with it and must use it until practically all the little pieces of metal have gone." if there are such families, which are they? The poorest in the Kingdom.
That applies not only to this tax but to the other items in the Amendment and, indeed, to the whole range—that in so far as the tax compels consumers to do without the taxed article or to do with less of it, that result will be at the expense of the people who already have the most imaginary share in this increased prosperity of which the Government ceaselessly remind us.
I do not believe there can be any justification for this tax. Will the Financial Secretary reconsider it? We have had no justification for it from the benches opposite—and, despite the gallant reinforcement of the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Spearman) to the sparsely populated benches opposite, it does not look as though we shall—

Mr. H. Wilson: On a point of order. Would it be in order for an hon. Member on this side of the Committee to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again—waiting until sufficient hon. Members opposite, who are forcing these Purchase Tax provisions through the House, show at least enough interest in the proceedings to attend?

The Temporary Chairman: I could not accept that Motion.

Mr. Stewart: I think it is worthy of note that although two hon. Members opposite vigorously protested at the beginning of my speech their desire to catch your eye in the future, Mr. Hoy, one of them has vanished. We shall listen to the other with great interest, if perhaps limited profit, in the future.
Will the Financial Secretary address himself to this point? If he is concerned that people should buy few pot scourers, pastry boards and the rest, does he imagine that that result can reasonably be expected on an article the demand for which is so inelastic? If his object is to say, "I will make sure they have less of something," is he not ashamed of pursuing a taxation policy which, so far as it has

an impact, must have it chiefly on the poorest people in the country?
It may be said that pot scourers are only a very small item in people's total expenditure, and that the addition of the tax will not make all that difference. That can be said time and again on each article that is considered in the Finance Bill. Why do we have this long and detailed procedure over the Finance Bill? It is because the experience of centuries has shown us that unless Governments are watched all the time by the House they will pile up a little more taxation here and a little more taxation there until the whole burden is too great to be borne.
That is particularly true of indirect taxation, because it can be said of each indirect tax: "This is not very much," or, or has already been said from the Government benches in the debate, "If prices are higher the people will get used to it. They will get used to having fewer pennies left after they have equipped their kitchens with essential articles." If the matter is as small as that, why are the Government bothering about it?
They cannot have it both ways. If they think it is worth while to put these rather mean little taxes in the Bill, they must recognise that they constitute one of the instruments with which, bit by bit, this Government are continuing to push up the cost of living. That is why we are making a protest over these articles, and why I trust that others of my hon. Friends will develop this argument, not only in relation to the pot scourers of which I have chiefly spoken, but to other articles affected by these three Amendments.
8.0 p.m.
The country should realise what this Government are doing. Suppose it were necessary to free more metal and more timber because our economy demanded it, what would be the proper way to go about it? Not by looking at the most necessary uses of metal and timber, but rather by looking round to prohibit the most unnecessary and luxury uses. This is a slovenly expedient on the part of the Government. They say "We do not really propose to govern—that is to say, to make a real assessment of the nation's needs and direct and control its resources where they are most required—but to sloven it along somehow." The price of that will be paid by some of the poorest in the country.

Brigadier Clarke: Although I do not propose to follow the arguments advanced by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) or by the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart), I must admit that, for once in my life, I agree with quite a lot that they have both said, though for different reasons. I do not attribute any dishonesty to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think that he is not only a very honest, but a very courageous man, but I am surprised at some of the things he has taxed. A gremlin in the Treasury must have been getting under his skin. Had he remained his normal self, these proposals could never have been produced, because I am sure that he is as anxious as anyone to bring down the cost of living.

Mr. R. T. Paget: On a point of order. Is it in order for the hon. and gallant Member to refer to the Financial Secretary as a gremlin?

Brigadier Clarke: There are ugly gremlins and beautiful gremlins and kind gremlins. I do not think that the Financial Secretary is at all an unkind gremlin —but something must have got under the Chancellor's skin. I do not know how taxes on pots, pans, brooms, brushes, scourers and things of that sort ever got into this Bill. I have no objection whatsoever to taxes on luxuries, and my right hon. Friend was courageous in putting them on.

Hon. Members: He has taken them off.

Mr. Lewis: Mr. Lewis rose—

Brigadier Clarke: No, I shall not give way.
The Chancellor was very courageous indeed, but this taxation brings in a very small amount of money and hits all the people who should least be hit. I am referring, in particular, to Service pensioners, old-age pensioners and other people living on small incomes. Those people who draw big wages may well be able to afford the extra 5d.—or whatever it is said that this tax will mean—but there are many old-age pensioners who, though better off now than in the days of hon. and right hon. gallant Gentlemen opposite have a very marginal limit of expenditure. I do not think that they can afford these extra taxes. If the Chancellor needed the money—and the country

is hardly in need of the £15 million that he hopes to get this year—I would say, "Let us have these taxes." But he does not want the money—he wants to save metal. I do not think that he will save very much metal. Whatever their status in life no one wants two frying pans if one will do. I know that my wife never goes on a shopping spree for frying pans. We buy one when we want one.
When I asked the other day how much metal it was thought this would save I was told that it was not known. If that is not known, there cannot be much wish to save metal. It might be saved on coal or coke cinder sifters—

Mr. Lewis: The Government do not know anything, do they?

Brigadier Clarke: I shall make my speech in my own way. It is a wonderful thing that the country has had four years of Tory rule, otherwise we should all, including hon. Gentlemen opposite, be "broke."
I am surprised at cinder sifters being taxed. I asked the Minister of Fuel and Power how much coal he estimated was saved in a year by people sifting their cinders and coke—

Mr. Wilfred Fienburgh: The hon. and gallant Member should try saying that in two hours' time.

Brigadier Clarke: The answer was that it saved three-quarters of a million tons of coal. That represents £5 million to £6 million. I should have thought that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor would have been most anxious for people to buy cinder sifters, as such an amount of coal is worth saving. How the estimate was worked out I do not know. A gremlin may have been at work in the Ministry of Fuel and Power also, but I do not think that a gremlin is capable of calculation.
I cannot understand why these taxes are being put on. They are inflationary. They will not achieve the Chancellor's object. I think that my right hon. Friend's main taxation proposals will achieve what he wants, but I do not think that these will do anything except antagonise everyone. I cannot understand why my right hon. Friend has imposed them; I hope they will be on for only a short time, and that they will come off as soon as we have learnt that to tax essentials is not a good way of taxing the people.

Mr. Lewis: Before the hon. and gallant Member sits down—

Brigadier Clarke: I have sat down.

Mr. Lewis: —will he tell us how he intends to vote?

Brigadier Clarke: I have already told my party that I shall abstain from voting on all these unnecessary taxes on essential articles—as I have done throughout the debate so far in Committee.

Mrs. E. M. Braddock: Never, while I have sat in this House, has there been so much agreement on both sides on the Chancellor's attitude as shown in this Finance Bill. If it is possible—and I am doubtful whether it is—that fact should persuade him that on this occasion he has been very badly advised indeed. If he looks at the speeches which have been made he will find that on only one occasion has one of his hon. Friends supported him to any extent. Another attempted to do so and made a very bad job of it.
I want to draw attention to something which the right hon. Gentleman may perhaps have forgotten, though having listened to the statements of the Chancellor, the Economic Secretary and the Financial Secretary on these Purchase Taxes I do not think that there is any possibility of their accepting any suggestions. Nevertheless, we should place on record what we think and say so that when people who are disgusted with the situation they can read what was said. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman realises that by taxing these items he is hitting a section of the community which has been waiting for a very long time for new housing accommodation.
Many people have for years been living with their in-laws or in rooms and have had no opportunity to acquire pots and pans, bread boards, scourers, and the rest. They have used what the family has had, or what was there. Whenever a family is given housing accommodation, all these articles have to be purchased, and usually a family has a certain amount of money put on one side for this purpose. The amount of money saved is usually governed by the prices of articles as they were when it was known to the family that they were to have possession of a house. Then when they wish to buy these articles they discover that prices have

risen because Purchase Tax has been added.
I think that almost everything possible has been said about pot scourers, except one thing, and I should like an explanation from the Financial Secretary on this point. I have been looking at the Customs and Excise identifications of these articles, and I have found an astonishing phrase —"Fully manufactured pot scourers." Can the Financial Secretary tell us what that means? Does it mean that if they are only half manufactured, or, if they are left in a stage of incompletion, there is no tax upon them at all?
I have always found the Customs and Excise officials very insistent upon carrying out to the letter what they say, irrespective of what anybody else thinks. If we can be told what "Fully manufactured pot scourers" are and to what extent Customs and Excise will be able to decide whether they are fully manufactured or not, it might help many people out of a difficulty.
An article to which I wish to refer
more than anything else is the rolling pin. I can understand the Chancellor putting Purchase Tax on rolling pins. It is quite possible that when the effects of this tax are felt by the ordinary people who discover that they have to pay more, rolling pins might be used upon some of the Tory women canvassers who go to the doors of working-class houses. Of course, if rolling pins are much more expensive, working-class people may be persuaded not to buy them.
It is obvious that Purchase Tax has been put on to the prices of articles that the ordinary people use. There has been no attempt at all to stop the excessive and disgusting spending that goes on throughout this city and particularly in the West End. No attempt has been made to curb the expenditure of people who have so much to throw away that they can throw parties to some of the biggest crooks in the city and invite other people to attend them. There is no suggestion in the Budget that some restriction should be put on that sort of spending.

Mr. H. Wilson: I believe I know the party to which my hon. Friend is referring. Is my hon. Friend aware that not only has the Treasury failed to cut out this kind of luxury spending but there


is every reason to believe from the reports one has seen of that particular party that the Chancellor paid for at least half the expense because it would have been chargeable to business expenses?

Mrs. Braddock: That is quite obvious. I think that it is perhaps as well for my right hon. Friend to draw attention to that so that it can go on record, although, of course, all of us here know about it. We all know of this excessive spending by people who never go short of anything and who do not know what a pot scourer is and never have to go into the kitchen to use one. All they do is to pay the account, whatever may be the amount of Purchase Tax involved on any of these household items. The Purchase Tax does not affect by one iota such people who have the money to pay for expensive articles.
8.15 p.m.
I have no objection, and I know that my hon. Friends have no objection, to tax being put on luxury articles—things that ordinary working-class people cannot aspire to. The amount that is added to washing machines and electric irons will not stop the purchase of these articles because to the people who buy them a few extra shillings or pounds will not make any difference. But the 2½d. that is added to pot scourers and the shillings that are added to various other commodities used by ordinary working-class people will cause hardship.
People were expecting prices to come down, not to go up. They accepted the word of the Tory Party that if it was returned to power it would bring down and keep down the cost of living. That is one of the reasons why the Tory Party got its majority. If the Tories had told the working-class and middle-class people that as soon as it was returned to power 2½d. would be added to the cost of a pot scourer, that 1s. was to be added to the cost of a pudding basin and that amounts from 2½d. to 9s. were to be added to the prices of essential commodities which ordinary people use the whole time, I am certain that the Tories would not be in power today. They would be sitting on this side of the Committee and doing what we are doing.
I notice that there are seven Members of the Tory Party in this Chamber and there is not one woman Member among

them listening to the debate on this very important matter. I hope their constituents will be made aware of this. They are not even saying the things that their constituents are saying.

Mr. Lewis: My hon. Friend must be fair to the Tory Members. There are seven of them here now, whereas a little while ago there were only four.

Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: May I observe that the hon. Lady was not here all night when the Conservatives were?

Mrs. Braddock: I was here. It is obvious that the hon. Gentleman was not here, or he would have known differently. I was sitting here almost the whole time.

Mr. Arthur Tiley (Bradford, West>: Mr. Arthur Tiley (Bradford, West> rose—

The Temporary Chairman: If the hon. Lady does not give way, the hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.

Mrs. Braddock: I am speaking for very many of my constituents who are finding new accommodation. They have drawn my attention in no uncertain manner to these matters. On the Sunday night before last, a meeting was hastily called
by the Co-operative women in the City of
Liverpool, at which there were over 250 delegates from women's organisations. They expressed very strong resentment indeed and asked me to convey to the Government their resentment at the tax which has been put upon the prices of these necessary commodities.
The amount that is to be drawn from these items is very small indeed. It is said that the Chancellor does not want the money but that he wants to prevent spending. He wants to prevent people buying these things so that the inflationary situation may be dealt with. I should like to be told how pot scourers can interfere with inflation. If anyone can tell me how rolling pins, bread boards, pots and pans can affect such a situation, I should be interested.
Let us be honest. Let us put the position quite clearly. It is obvious that the Tory Party resents ordinary working-class families having a better standard of life and having additional money to spend. They resent that. They dislike it. They hate the fact that ordinary people enjoy these things, because of six years of


Labour Party legislation. When dealing with these matters hon. Members opposite should not run away with the idea that they are responsible for full employment. They inherited it from the legislation put into operation by the Labour Party between 1945 and 1951, and they have taken advantage of it to impose this tax instead of taxing the profits resulting from increased productivity.
I am told, and I have no reason to disbelieve it, that in the first eight months of this year increased profits resulting from increased production amounted to £166 million. Would it not be better to get the amount which the Chancellor wants from those increased profits, instead of puting this paltry, mean, miserable, and, as I said the other day, obscene Purchase Tax on the ordinary commodities used by ordinary working people?

Mr. Douglas Glover: I think it was the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) who said on one occasion that he had a song in his heart, and I have a little of the same feeling now. I have always hated Purchase Tax, and now some hon. Members opposite seem to have joined me in my opposition to it. In the Budgets produced by Labour Chancellors of the Exchequer, Purchase Tax was a major weapon of economic policy. Now that we have hon. Members on both sides of the Committee who are opposed to Purchase Tax, I think that we stand a reasonable chance of getting rid of it altogether in the near future, which would remove one element which leads to squabbling across the Floor of the Chamber.
I wish to be fair in my criticism of Purchase Tax. In my view, it is inflationary in the long-run, but that does not mean that it is inflationary in the short-run. In the short-run, Purchase Tax is deflationary—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] —because it reduces the spending power of the population. It is rather like those fairground machines where you are asked to get a hammer and hit a thing and send something up to the top of a pole. If you ring the bell, you get your money back. But because we are working in an economy of full employment, I believe that the repercussion of the blow with the hammer has an immediate de-

flationary effect, but the long-term effect is to send things up the ladder until we ring the bell.

Mr. Chapman: Would the hon. Gentleman explain what he means by "immediate"? How short a time has he in mind? Most of the wage demands now resulting from the Budget will be settled in the next few months. Would he term six months a short or a long term?

The Temporary Chairman: Order. I do not want this discussion to get too wide again. We are discussing three specific Amendments and I should be grateful if the hon. Member would devote his arguments to them.

Mr. Glover: I should not think of disputing your Ruling, Mr. Hoy, but I have sat through the whole debate, and as there was an attack on the Government by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), who ranged very widely, I think it would be unfair to tie me down too narrowly in this matter.

The Temporary Chairman: It is not my intention to tie the hon. Gentleman down too narrowly, but he will remember that I called the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne to order on two or three occasions and that is what I am now doing to him.

Mr. Lewis: May I draw your attention, My Hoy, to the fact that your predecessor in the Chair dealt with this point and said that while he understood and accepted that we could have a general debate on all these matters, he hoped, without instructing the Committee to do so, that hon. Members would respect his desire that we should limit our discussions? In view of that, I think you will agree that the hon. Member was in order.

The Temporary Chairman: I agree that the Ruling was given and I am sure that it would be the desire of the Committee, not to go against a request made with such courtesy from the Chair.

Mr. Glover: I shall certainly try to keep in order.
Prior to several interjections, the hon. Member for Northfield (Mr. Chapman) asked me a question. Taking the nation as a whole, I will quote the Purchase Tax as having a deflationary effect for approximately twelve months. While we


get some wage claims there would be an inflationary effect, but if we take the whole economy I think that the maximum period is about twelve months.
Had I been fortunate enough to be called during the debates on the Budget or on the Finance Bill, I should have put forward suggestions to my right hon. Friend about how this might have been tackled, but as I was not, I shall be out of order if I mention them now. Although there is a great question mark in my mind, I have supported the Chancellor's proposals because I think that in the short-term they will achieve the object which he wishes to achieve.
I should not like it to go from this Committee that the vast experience obviously possessed by hon. Gentlemen opposite in these matters is unique. I reckon that I have had as much experience of pot scourers, mops, and dish cloths as they have, and on a proper occasion I will go into the merits or demerits of them with hon. Gentlemen opposite.

Mr. Stan Awbery: Which hand does the hon. Member use?

Mr. Glover: I am left-handed, but I will go into that on some other occasion, too. If I have a real criticism of the proposals made by the Chancellor it is that we men have come out of this matter fairly lightly while the women are taking an undue share of the burden.

Mrs. Braddock: They always do.

8.30 p.m.

Mr. Glover: I am sure that the women of Britain—if they feel it is right—will loyally carry out the wishes of the Chancellor, but I think the Chancellor ought to look again at the tax on things like pot scourers. A pot scourer is a most miserable thing to use if once it gets beyond its working life. If one has ever tried to wash a plate with a mop which gets all soggy and messy one knows that with a new clean one the job is cleaner, easier and much more hygienic. When we are trying—as we are—to put the emphasis on a rise in hygiene, I think it unfortunate to try to reduce expenditure, by however small an amount, of things which are necessities in the house.
As I have already told my hon. Friends, I propose supporting the Government in

the Lobby, as I have done throughout the debate on the Finance Bill, but I have grave doubts whether the long-term result of this proposal will not, in fact, be inflationary. I think that before Report stage my right hon. Friend could well have a look at the tax on things like pot scourers, which are a necessity in every house, whatever the income or status of the occupier.

Mr. George Thomas: I am grateful to have caught your eye, Sir Rhys, after having listened to two interesting speeches from hon. Members opposite. I can understand the interest of the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West (Brigadier Clarke), who is no longer with us—

Mr. Glover: Neither is the hon. Lady who moved the Amendment.

Mr. Thomas: Maybe they are together.

The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris): I am not interested in that.

Mr. Thomas: I realise that you are not interested in where those hon. Members are, Sir Rhys, and I hastily move to the rest of my speech.
I come from a part of Wales where people are house proud. They like to have in their houses all the things which make for cleanliness. The working women of Wales, no doubt the working women of England, also—

Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and, 40 Members being present—

Mr. Thomas: It is a long time, Sir Rhys—

Mr. Glover: Will hon. Members in the Committee keep quiet in order to allow the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) to make his speech undisturbed?

Mr. Thomas: It is a long time since so many hon. Members ran through the Lobbies when they knew I was on my feet. I appreciate more than I can say the zeal with which they came in, but I am sorry for the haste with which they left.
Two arguments have been advanced against the Amendment now before the Committee. Right hon. and hon. Members opposite have been at pains to indi-


cate that the burden put on the housewife by these special increases is not very much and that, after all, it will not be a very severe increase in the expenditure of any individual home. I think that that is putting fairly the argument that has been advanced from the Treasury Box in favour of the general principle. On the other hand, the argument has been advanced that it will have such an effect upon the economy of the home that the housewife will not buy a pot scourer when she needs one and will not buy a rolling pin, a cinder sieve, or sifter, when she requires one.
I would remind the Committee that the people affected by this Amendment are those who more than others place a moral obligation on us to watch over their well-being. The other day a Minister told us that today the old-age pension is worth 26s. 8d. in terms of 1945 values. That is 8d.—only a matter of coppers—more than it was in 1946.

The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member is now carrying his argument beyond the scope of the Amendment.

Mr. Chapman: On a point of order. Before you came into the Chair, Sir Rhys, our debate upon the Amendment ranged over a wide field, including the theoretical justification of Purchase Tax. Points which we have raised have been partly answered. I submit that it is most unfortunate for the Committee if different occupants of the Chair keep changing their minds as to how widely the debate should range.

The Deputy-Chairman: I am not going back over that ground now. That is not what I am dealing with. The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) was dealing with old-age pensions.

Mr. E. Shinwell: My hon. Friend was merely referring to old-age pensioners by way of illustration. Presumably, they will use pot scourers. Surely, if they use these articles and the price is likely to be raised in consequence of the imposition of Purchase Tax, such an illustration is quite appropriate, Sir Rhys.

The Deputy-Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman's illustration is quite in order, but the question of the position of the old-age pensioner can be stated simply and easily.

Mr. Thomas: I am well aware that when you hear the remainder of my argument, Sir Rhys, you will realise how anxious I was to make that point. My argument is that if this tax is now imposed it will wipe out 8d. of the value of old-age pensions, and it may lead the Minister to a position where he is unable to refuse an increase in old-age pensions. To that degree, the tax is inflationary.
The Chancellor has been ill-advised upon this question. The Amendment deals with a cowardly proposal by the Government. It is cowardly because an attempt is being made to reduce the purchasing power of the working people without reducing their wages. The trade unions are too strong for the Government to feel able to reduce wages directly, and their only way of doing it is by this mean and miserable method of adding on a halfpenny here and a penny there; devaluing the £ without acknowledging that they are doing so.
I now turn to the question of cinder sieves and sifters. We all know that it is a matter of anxiety to the nation that our coal supplies shall be conserved, and that we should use our fuel resources to the best advantage. In my constituency, most of the people who will use these cinder sifters are anxious to save a few coppers because they cannot afford to buy much coal. They have to use their cinders, and are only to glad to have sifters. The Minister is now telling them to do without sifters and to buy more expensive coal. It is difficult to realise what rhyme or reason lies behind his policy in this regard. I am sorry that the Financial Secretary always seems to be left to do the impossible in replying to these debates.

Mr. Shinwell: Where is the Chancellor?

Mr. Thomas: I think the Chancellor has retired.

Mr. Shinwell: Ask the Financial Secretary.

Mr. Thomas: I am not particularly anxious. I only want to know whether the Financial Secretary believes that one less cinder sifter will be bought next year because of the few coppers he is putting on to its price. Can he imagine one housewife in Britain saying, "I will not buy a pot scourer because of the 2½d. extra that has been put upon its price?"

Mr. Moss: The viciousness of this legislation lies in the fact that it is relentless. The Government are determined to tax the common necessities of life.

The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member should reserve his speech until he has his own opportunity of making it.

Mr. Thomas: I gave way to my hon. Friend, Sir Rhys.

The Deputy-Chairman: I must remind hon. Members that the object of an intervention is either to clarify an ambiguity or to correct a mis-statement. The House is in Committee now, and the hon. Member has plenty of opportunities to make a speech of his own if he wants to.

Mr. Moss: Do I take it, then, Sir Rhys, that although I have not spoken in the Committee I have not the right to ask one of my hon. Friends, while he is making a speech, whether he agrees with a point I am putting in connection with his speech?

The Deputy-Chairman: No. I have just pointed out that the object of an intervention is to clear up an ambiguity or correct a mis-statement. The hon. Member can make a speech of his own.

Mr. Lewis: My hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mr. Moss) interrupted my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West, (Mr. G. Thomas) to ask him whether he was under a misapprehension and whether he understood a certain matter and my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden tried to explain to him what the objective of the Chancellor was. Surely that was to clear up a mis-statement.

The Deputy-Chairman: As I understood the hon. Member for Meriden (Mr. Moss), he was asking whether the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) agreed with him.

Mr. Thomas: I am very sorry to interrupt these interruptions. It is quite clear that this is one of the most effective speeches I have been able to make in the Committee, although I do seem almost to have emptied the benches opposite.
I have two questions to address to the Financial Secretary. How much metal does he anticipate will be saved, first, on the pot scourers and, secondly, on the rolling pins and, thirdly, on the cinder

sieves and sifters? Will he also tell us how many people he anticipates will be prevented from buying necessities simply because he has put up their price?
I feel I have not only the right but the duty to remind the Committee that it is not long ago since the people of Cardiff were being told by the party opposite that it would bring down the cost of living. This Amendment is aimed at helping the Government to fulfil the promise they made. Does the hon. Gentleman wish to interrupt?

Mr. Glover: The hon. Gentleman is always so kind to me, probably kinder than most Welshmen. Is it not normal medical practice, when a doctor interviews a patient who has a high temperature, to make the patient hotter to get the temperature down?

The Deputy-Chairman: Whatever the Committee is dealing with, it is not the medical condition of anyone.

Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Glover) is not as helpful as my hon. Friends, and I am sure that his remarks about other Welshmen and me will be resented by the Committee.
I have the obligation to say here that there are people in Cardiff who will be seriously affected by the proposals the Government have put before us. It is a gross betrayal of what they told the people but a short while ago, in May. This is the price of Tory rule. This proposal, and the others in the Bill, are all part of the price we have to pay because the Tory Party succeeded in misleading the nation at the General Election.

8.45 p.m.

Mr. Blenkinsop: I have listened patiently and with interest to the whole of this debate, and I do not think that I have ever before heard the Government lashed with such ridicule as they have been throughout these hours on both sides of the Committee. If the Government were susceptible to any form of shame at all, they would by now have announced their willingness to withdraw these ridiculous and foolish proposals. It is only too obvious that the Government are not prepared to make any move at all to meet the arguments raised on both sides of the Committee and, therefore, the members of the Government and


the supporters of the Government have only themselves to blame if they suffer weariness during the hours of the sitting of this Committee when matters of this kind are being raised and debated.
It has been an astonishing experience to listen to speech after speech from both sides of the Committee, in which the only attempt to justify the proposals from the Conservative benches was made by someone with a great deal of experience—the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke)—of the motor car industry, who made interesting proposals about the possibility of increasing the export of bird cages by means of the tax which is proposed. That is the sort of level of argument which we have had from the one defender of the Government's proposals up to now.
The real fact is, as some of my hon. Friends have pointed out, not so much that these proposals will limit the number of pot scourers—and other implements covered by these Amendments—which are to be bought in the shops, because they have to be bought in any case, but rather that they are going to build up a psychological atmosphere which I should have thought it was the Government's main object to prevent. If the Government wanted to do anything which would cause great annoyance about petty issues, they have done it by imposing this form of taxation.
In every shop in the land housewives are making comments about all these classes of articles, and it is foolish for hon. Members to imagine that this is merely a matter of the actual number of pence which may be added to the cost of purchases by a particular individual at a particular time. These stupid, irresponsible proposals are built up in such a way as to infuriate ordinary people in the country and make them feel that there is no reason at all why they should give any co-operation to the Government of the day.
I do not believe that the Government have yet attempted to justify any of the detailed proposals which have been made in this Committee—never once. They have attempted some vague justification on general grounds which have been torn to shreds and destroyed utterly by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), as is apparent

to anyone who had the pleasure of listening to his arguments. Never once has the Financial Secretary or other occupants of the Treasury Bench attempted to justify these specific proposals with which we are really concerned. It seems to me to be fantastic that the Committee should be presented with a situation in which apparently it is impossible to make any progress and to move the Government at all in spite of the logical arguments which have all the time been advanced on these issues.
I had hoped to have seen the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) in his place. Hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have explained their personal interest in pot scourers. I have shared the experience of some of my hon. Friends and of the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Glover). We have all had a good deal of experience in this matter. One point, which I thought would have appealed to the hon. Member for Kidderminster, is that by using pot scourers, whether made of metal or nylon, which I prefer, or of plastic material, it is possible to clean a pan efficiently without hot water. Indeed, there are some who argue that it is possible to clean more efficiently if the cleaning is done immediately with cold water, provided that one has an efficient scrubber.
It should appeal to the hon. Member for Kidderminster, who is properly anxious about the use of coal, that there is no need to waste hot water on some of the pots and pans if the proper equipment is available. I regret that we have not had the usual intervention from the hon. Member for Kidderminster, who might have been able to detail to us, as he is so capable of doing, in statistical form how much coal the country would save by the provision, possibly free to every householder, of proper pot scourers.
After hearing the speeches on the Amendments, the Financial Secretary must realise the futility of these proposals and must at last show some grace by agreeing to the withdrawal of this tax.

Mr. H. Brooke: At an earlier stage in this very interesting debate some doubt arose as to whether I was a gremlin. I hope that the Committee will at least grant that I am a patient and courteous gremlin. I have heard every word of the debate on the Amendments, and I want to try to answer specific questions. I


hope also that the Committee will forgive me if I bear in mind your suggestion at an earlier stage, Sir Rhys, and do not roam over the whole universe in dealing with the somewhat narrow Amendments, for there were occasions in the debate when I wondered whether we were discussing rolling pins or space travel.
The hon. Lady the Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mrs. Braddock) said about an hour ago that she judged that by then almost everything possible had been said on the subject, but she asked why specific reference was made to fully-manufactured pot scourers. That reference is in the former Purchase Tax schedule, issued before the Budget, in which the scope of exemptions was defined. It was intended to make clear there that the article that was exempt was a fully-manufactured pot scourer, not a part of that article or a partly manufactured article which might be turned into something else.
The three Amendments which we are discussing must be viewed against the general intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to raise about £75 million by additional Purchase Tax. As my right hon. Friend explained, he felt that it would not be right to confine the additional tax to articles which happened to be taxed already, and he deemed it proper to bring within the scope of the tax household goods which happened to be outside the tax. I stress the word "happened" because, as I will show in a minute or two, the line between the taxable and the non-taxable is a narrow and sometimes a curious one.
The plan to impose tax on household goods generally is estimated to bring in about £15 million. The three Amendments with which we are dealing now embody the intention of the Opposition to carve out artificially from the range of household goods these seven or eight articles such as pot scourers, steel-wool, and so on.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) asked me how much metal would be saved. This is not a matter of saving substantial quantities of metal or of bringing in a heavy revenue. It is a matter of seeking to avoid anomalies created by leaving out of tax one small group of articles which would

naturally fall within the general definition of household goods.
The same hon. Gentleman and possibly other hon. Members asked me about the estimated revenue. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor explained earlier that it is exceptionally difficult to give a precise figure attached to each of these Amendments. This is because, when the Customs is collecting the revenue, it does not foresee Amendments that will be used in the House of Commons at a subsequent date, nor does it call for detailed returns of the tax on each separate article.

Mr. Turner-Samuels: Mr. Turner-Samuels rose—

Mr. Brooke: I am trying to give to the Committee as much information as I can—

Mr. Turner-Samuels: Mr. Turner-Samuels rose—

The Deputy-Chairman: Order, order. The hon. and learned Gentleman must resume his seat if the right hon. Gentleman does not give way.

Mr. Brooke: I have listened to the debate. I have not interrupted hon. Gentlemen opposite who sometimes make provocative remarks, and at this moment I am trying to give the Committee some information in order to help it make up its mind.
So far as we can measure it—and I speak subject to all that the Chancellor has said already about the difficulties—we judge that the additional revenue likely to come in from the three groups of articles in these Amendments is of the order of a quarter of a million pounds. In other words, it is not a triviality, as some have suggested, neither is it a major contribution to the total national Budget.
Hon. Members who have exercised their mathematical faculties on the figure which
I have just given will be able to calculate from it that, by imposing tax on this small group of articles, it is likely that the cost of living will rise by one-fifteenth of a penny per week. Having said that, I hope I have demolished the suggestions—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] Let me at least finish my sentence. I have waited for two hours to make this speech.

Mr. Lewis: I have waited for two and a half hours.

Mr. Brooke: By giving the Committee that figure I hope I have demolished the argument used by a number of hon. Members that tax on this group of articles would substantially raise the cost of living and give rise to wage claims. I agree that there is a big question to be discussed on the wider range but I want to confine myself to this Amendment, as you have asked, Sir Rhys, and I do not think anyone would seriously suggest that, whether or not we impose it, tax amounting to one-fifteenth of a penny per week will have a major effect on the cost of living.

Mr. Chapman: The right hon. Gentleman is making a fair point but I think he has missed the main point made by my hon. Friends, namely that it is not the amount but the particularly irritating point at which the tax is being imposed. It provokes wage demands because it is so irritating.

9.0 p.m.

Mr. Brooke: I can imagine myself being irritated more greatly by other things than pot scourers. I am not seeking to pooh-pooh anything that has been said in the debate; I am simply stating my side of the case and trying to quantify some of the arguments which have been used.
know that the Opposition is concerned to plead that these items are essentials, and I certainly regard them as essentials—it is extremely awkward to be without a rolling pin—but hon. Gentlemen opposite accompany their plea with the argument that their policy would be to tax only luxuries. Though they may not be aware of it, all these years, and throughout the time of the Labour Government, pastry cutters have been taxed. I seek to analyse these things as carefully as I can, but it seems hard to conceive of a major difference in essentiality between a pastry board and a pastry cutter.
I am putting my point of view, and I put forward that argument to prove the case that I am making, that it is not a fact that hitherto in this field of household goods all the essentials have been free and all the non-essentials have been taxed. The line between them has been a very wiggly one. If tax is imposed on all these articles, it will mean not the creation of anomalies but the removal of a number of discrepancies which are certainly regarded by shopkeepers as anomalous.
I do not wish to weary the Committee with a lengthy speech on this matter, and I do not think that would be the Committee's desire at this time of night. I simply want to say that the tax on these articles is a small part of the general plan in the Budget to check inflation. It would be strange, curious and anomalous to omit these few articles. If the general plan to which I have referred succeeds, it will do more than anything else to assist the people referred to in the debate, people living on small and fixed incomes, whose interests, as an hon. Member said, we have a special obligation to watch.

Mr. Shinwell: I do not suppose for a moment that the Committee would have objected to a lengthy speech from the Financial Secretary if only he had put up a reasonable defence for the tax. I must confess that I have never heard a weaker case presented.
The reason for the imposition appears to be that the Chancellor, having two objects in mind, one being to prevent inflation, or, at any rate, to reduce it and the other being to raise revenue by imposing Purchase Tax, decided that he must raise £75 million. Then he looked round for something to tax, and seized upon pot scourers and a number of other items.
The Financial Secretary referred to pastry cutters. I do not know why he made that reference, because anybody who has any knowledge of the domestic sphere is well aware that pot scourers are in much greater use than pastry cutters, and, indeed, are much more useful. I doubt whether there is a single household in the country, at any rate where the housewife is houseproud and is concerned with the hygiene of the household, where a pot scourer is not in use.
The right hon. Gentleman said that he
would not be irritated by a pot scourer, but if his wife tried to use one on him, I think that he would be very much irritated. I have the impression that he knows very little about pot scourers. For example, he talked about fully-manufactured pot scourers. But there are different kinds of pot scourers. There are fully-manufactured pot scourers and half-baked pot scourers and there are pot scourers in embryo. Apparently, those in embryo do not bear tax. Will someone be good enough to explain why


embryonic pot scourers do not have to pay tax? Why should tax be paid only on fully-manufactured pot scourers? Why should it be fully-manufactured pot scourers upon which the Chancellor pounces to impose this obnoxious tax?

Mr. H. Brooke: Perhaps the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) did not hear the whole of our earlier debate. I was speaking about the situation before the Budget when fully-manufactured pot scourers were exempt, but it is important so to define the Purchase Tax Schedules that there will be no means of wrongfully claiming exemption.

Mr. Shinwell: In order to escape from the imposition of this obnoxious tax, there will be an attempt to produce half-baked pot scourers instead of fully-manufactured pot scourers and the Chancellor will not be able to raise his £75 million. He will look around for other worlds to conquer. This is ridiculous.
I heard the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West (Brigadier Clarke). If I may say so, it was the first sensible speech I have heard him make in the House of Commons.

Brigadier Clarke: Will the right hon. Member for Easington admit that if he had his way, I would never have been in the House to make a speech?

Mr. Shinwell: I do not know, Sir Rhys, how far you will permit me to go into that matter. I had occasion, when I was Secretary of State for War and when the hon. and gallant Gentleman committed what could be regarded only as a most undesirable faux pas, to have him transferred from one part of the country to another, and he has never forgiven me for that.

Mr. Ellis Smith: Moral Rearmament now.

The Deputy-Chairman: I hope that we shall come back to the Amendment.

Mr. Shinwell: My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) accused another hon. Member of being associated with Moral Rearmament. The only rearmament with which I have been associated was when I was Secretary of State for War and Minister of Defence.

The Deputy-Chairman: I think that we should come back to the Amendment.

Brigadier Clarke: Will the right hon. Member for Easington admit that he was never in a position to be armed in any respect?

Mr. Shinwell: We must return to the pot scourer which, by the way, is a form of armament. It is a very useful weapon and I have frequently used it myself. May I explain to the Committee the use of a pot scourer? One takes a pot—I will come to rolling pins in a minute—and, if the pot is not very clean, one takes the pot scourer, whether fully-manufactured or half-baked, and hot water—boiling water, if available—and scours and scours and scours. One of my hon. Friends argued with me that a mop was better than a pot scourer, but I have used both and I am bound to say that I come down on the side of the pot scourer.

Mr. Ellis Smith: Fully manufactured?

Mr. Shinwell: No. I have used the embryonic form frequently—bits of wire, steel wool; one turns it round and round in the pot.
The hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West was quite right when he said that the pot scourer, like the sieve for retrieving cinders, contributes in a large measure to fuel efficiency and fuel economy. A Daniel come to judgment. I suggest that we are likely to suffer much more in the loss of coal because of this tax than we shall gain in revenue, and I am astonished that the Chancellor should be so pettifogging as to produce this tax. It ought to have its throat cut at the earliest opportunity. I do not know whether one can cut the throat of a pot scourer, but hon. Members will understand the illustration.
Let us come to the question of the sieve for retrieving cinders. I am an expert on this subject because many years ago, not for bogus company promotion or picking pockets or anything criminal, I was a guest at one of His Majesty's institutions. I was a stranger and he took me in. While I was there they gave me the job of retrieving cinders, shovelling them into a sieve and riddling them. A large amount of coal was saved. Now the Chancellor intends to impose a tax on this very useful article, as a result of which we shall suffer a great loss in coal.
Has he consulted the Minister of Fuel and Power or the National Coal Board or the fuel efficiency people?

Mr. Lewis: Or the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro)?

Mr. Shinwell: I hope the hon. Member for Kidderminster does not need a pot scourer. He has one on his face.

The Deputy-Chairman: Order. I hope that the Committee will deal with the Amendment.

Mr. Shinwell: Numerous suggestions are being conveyed to me from my hon. Friends, and I am at a loss which one to use. Now that the Chancellor is here perhaps I may briefly repeat the point which I put to the Financial Secretary. The Chancellor wants £75 million, and he is seeking to reduce inflation. He looks around and says, "Where shall I get the £75 million?" He imposes a tax on pot scourers. He might have imposed a tax on some of the pot boilers which we receive from the United States in the form of films.

The Deputy-Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman is getting out of order.

Mr. Shinwell: Surely it is in order. Cannot I make a proposal to the Chancellor on how to raise the money?

The Deputy-Chairman: Not on this Amendment.

Mr. Shinwell: I have made the contribution and I will leave it at that.
I am astonished at the Chancellor. We know that he is in great difficulty. He must be. I could tell him how to escape from his difficulties, though not by imposing taxes of this sort, either for deflation or partial deflation or for raising revenue. Had he had the courage to face up to the people associated with defence he could have saved £150 million. That is how to get the money. It is time he was told that—indeed he has been told that frequently and he should now act on it.

9.15 p.m.

The Deputy-Chairman: This is really getting beyond the bounds of this debate.

Mr. Shinwell: I shall be only too glad to discuss with the right hon. Gentleman how to save £150 million on defence.

The Deputy-Chairman: I hope that attention will be paid to Rulings from the Chair.

Mr. Shinwell: With great respect, Sir Rhys, it was not my intention to disregard your Ruling, but hon. Members are entitled to feel indignant about some of the Chancellor's proposals. I do not speak out of disrespect to the Chancellor nor do I wish to commit an act of discourtesy. We recognise that he is tackling a very difficult job, but he could find the money in other ways. I hope that even at this late stage he will listen to the suggestions made, reconsider his proposals and amend them either by reducing the tax on some of these articles or by removing it altogether.

Mr. H. Wilson: In response to your guidance on the previous Amendment, Sir Rhys, I do not intend to repeat the general arguments which, if I may say so, were highly relevant to the previous Amendment and would be equally relevant to this. I do not propose to do that, or to speak for very long, because I am quite sure that all hon. Members are only too anxious to have as long a debate as possible on the Amendment relating to dustbins and other things. In so far as there is any prospect of the debate being concluded at a reasonable hour this evening, I hope that we shall have a longer debate than last night when, in order to conclude at a reasonable hour, there was a rather hurried debate on an important Amendment.
For the last two hours this debate has surely been extraordinary. For at least three quarters of the time there were not more than six hon. Members on the other side of the Committee. Apart from when the right hon. Gentleman was speaking, the only time when we saw them in any number was when attention was drawn to the fact that fewer than 40 hon. Members were present. It seems monstrous, with the Government forcing their proposals through the Committee day by day —indeed, night by night—against the very strong desires of all hon. Members on this side and of most on the benches opposite, and against the desires of the whole country, that we cannot find more than half a dozen Tories with sufficient interest in the Bill to attend the debate. It is particularly remarkable, because today's debates have been among the most important. We have been debating those items


which were not subject in any way to tax until the Chancellor introduced his unfortunate Budget on 26th October.
We have had a number of remarkable speeches, but for reasons which the Committee
will appreciate I do not want to deal with them all in detail. There was the comprehensive speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mrs. Corbet), and the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). My hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) gave the Committee some very interesting culinary information, and indicated that he could give valuable guidance to both sides of the Committee about some of the domestic problems on which he is quite clearly an expert. I shall not follow that particular point, though, with respect to you, Sir Rhys, I would not regard it as being out of order to do so. Quite clearly, if my hon. Friend has this special means of boiling an egg, and can also clean a saucepan with cold water—

Mr. M. Stewart: My right hon. Friend does me too much honour. It was I who knew how to boil an egg, but another of his hon. Friends who knew how to clean a saucepan with cold water.

The Deputy-Chairman: I do not think that knowledge of boiling an egg comes into this discussion.

Mr. Wilson: With respect, Sir Rhys, the context in which it was raised was this. It all arose out of an unfortunate occurrence which was depicted on the back page of this morning's Daily Express, to a certain Mr. Gambol who got into trouble after boiling the pan dry, the consequence being that more pot scourers are required, thus giving the Chancellor more revenue and completely affecting the whole circumstances upon which this calculation is based.
The reason that I do not propose to follow my hon. Friend on that point is that there was a speech to which we listened with very great interest from the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West (Brigadier Clarke). If I may say so, he spoke with great courage. He said what we have been saying on this side of the Committee on this part of the Budget, namely, that it puts the tax on those who can least afford to pay it. He said plainly that it will not save metal. His argument was that he would never

believe in buying two frying pans when he needed only one, which is a common experience of most people. As was said earlier in reply to the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), who has not been seen since he made his speech supporting the Government, the argument of the Economic Secretary throughout has been not that he wants to reduce consumption of these items but that he wants to take more money from people who buy these items.
My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mrs. Braddock) commented that both sides of the Committee have been united in this debate. She went on to refer particularly to those who have not had homes of their own until now and who have been forced to live in rooms and who are now suddenly called upon to furnish a home. We have already debated the tax on furniture. I drew attention the other day to the fact that newly married couples had to pay more for the wedding ring. We shall be debating the question of rents elsewhere. Now, unfortunately, newly married people have got to pay more for the pot scourers, pastry boards, coal and cinder sieves and sifters and so on.
We heard a speech by the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Glover), who appears to be one of those who support the Government, so far as one can tell. He seemed to think—I do not think many have argued this way—that these measures will have a deflationary effect. He genuinely believes that, I think. He said that these measures will only have a deflationary effect for a period of twelve months. What happens after twelve months? Presumably, inflation then sets in. Then what happens? The Chancellor presumably then reduces the tax, dissolution sets in, we have another Election, and go through the whole process again. That is obviously what the Chancellor has in mind.
We have had a speech by the Financial Secretary, as courteous as he always is. For the most part his speech was dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell). I do not propose to repeat the arguments of my right hon. Friend, but it is rather interesting to observe the shift system that is being worked on the Government Front Bench. It gives us different types of


replies to similar types of Amendments, and it is interesting to observe the different slants, obsessions and fixations which different Treasury Ministers have when explaining these things.
The Economic Secretary, if he had replied, would have told us that this measure was essential on economic grounds and that we must support the £. Three hours ago we were told that the £ can only be saved by taxing clothes pegs, and now we have been told that the £ can only be saved by taxes on coal and cinder sieves and sifters. He would have said that he did not want to discourage the consumption of these things and that it did not save any metal, but that he wanted to take a little more money from the people with money to buy these things, as a result of which they would have less money with which to buy bird cages so that more bird cages would be exported and the £ would be strong. That would have been the speech of the Economic Secretary.
But the Economic Secretary was not here. He was having his dinner. So we had the Financial Secretary. Now, the Financial Secretary has an entirely different approach—none of this highfalutin' economic nonsense for him. To him, it is a matter of mental torture to survey parts of the Schedule and find that there is anything which is not in it. That is his trouble. He finds a yawning gap, so he has to fill it. He says that the reasons for this particular section—after all, it is only one or two or three more letters in the Customs and Excise list that we are debating—the reason for this one, in contradistinction to the arguments of the Economic Secretary, is that if we do not have these things taxed, there will be a lot of anomalies caused by leaving them out.
Of course, they have been left out for years. All these items have been outside the tax schedule since 1951; and it is only tonight that we can realise the agony and the mental suffering which the right hon. Gentleman has been going through for four long years, when he realised that the Board of Customs and Excise was unable to tax pot scourers and all these other things that we have been debating.
In this debate there has been little reference to rolling pins, except by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool,

Exchange who should, perhaps, have declared her interest before she spoke. The right hon. Gentleman seems to be obsessed with pastry cutters. Why, we do not know except that he was talking of wiggly lines about that time. He did not understand why pastry cutters should be taxed and pastry boards should not be taxed. It is the old argument of the teapot over again. We heard that the other day. When the right hon. Gentleman discovered that teapot spouts were taxed and the rest of the teapot was not, he put a tax on the whole teapot. Finding today, to his delight, that pastry cutters have been taxed for so long, he feels a certain gnawing at his vitals because pastry boards are not. He does not understand why, but we can tell him. One can use a knife instead of a pastry cutter—

Dr. Barnett Stross: Or dentures.

Mr. Wilson: I agree with my right hon. Friend, but perhaps he will agree with me that that would produce a wiggly line which would upset the Financial Secretary.
These are the arguments we have had from the Financial Secretary and we must come back to this. I do not propose to repeat the arguments which have already been advanced, but we have the fantastic position that the Treasury seriously, and in cold blood, has decided to impose these taxes without the faintest idea of how much revenue they will produce, or how much deflation they will achieve. I am beginning to think that the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West was right, and that these things are not decided on economic principles, but by a gremlin in the Treasury. I am beginning to think that the only argument we have had from the Treasury Bench which makes sense is the one advanced by the Financial Secretary, that he cannot bear to see anything left out.
As I said before, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) took all these items off tax in 1951; at a time when, by common consent, it was considered necessary to increase taxation by £170 million, and at that time the Conservative Party failed to vote against an increase in Income Tax. At this time, when we are told that things are so much better, and when we have just given away £151 million in taxation,


for the first time for four years the Chancellor puts a tax on these items.
The more I listen to these debates the more I am convinced that all the so-called economic arguments in favour of these taxes are pure humbug, and that the real reason for them is either the Financial Secretary's view that he wishes to spread the range of tax until it covers every single item in the home, or the desire of the right hon. Gentleman's advisers who will not be happy until we have an all-embracing sales tax and all

the more equitable differentials in Purchase Tax have been swept away.

Having listened to the debate and heard the unsatisfactory answers which have been given, I am sure that my right hon. and hon. Friends will wish to show their dissatisfaction with both the policies and explanations by voting in favour of the Amendment.

Question put, That "(t)" stand part of the Schedule:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 243, Noes 204.

Division No. 60.]
AYES
[9.30 p.m.


Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.
Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.
Keegan, D.


Aitken, W. T.
Duthie, W. S.
Kerby, Capt. H. B.


Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)
Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir A. (Warwick &amp; L'm'tn)
Kerr, H. W.


Alport, C. J. M.
Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn
Kershaw, J. A.


Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)
Errington, Sir Eric
Kirk, P. M.


Arbuthnot, John
Erroll, F. J.
Lancaster, Col. C. G.


Armstrong, C. W.
Farey-Jones, F. W.
Langford-Holt, J. A.


Ashton, H.
Fell, A.
Leavey, J. A.


Atkins, H. E.
Finlay, Graeme
Leburn, W. G.


Baldock, Lt. -Cmdr. J. M.
Fisher, Nigel
Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)


Baldwin, A. E.
Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.
Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)


Balniel, Lord
Fletcher-Cooke, C.
Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)


Barber, Anthony
Fort, R.
Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)


Barlow, Sir John
Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)
Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)


Barter, John
Freeth, D. K.
Lloyd-George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G.


Baxter, Sir Beverley
Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.
LOW, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.


Beamish, Maj. Tufton
George, J. C. (Pollok)
Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)


Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)
Glover, D.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh


Bennett, Dr. Reginald
Godber, J. B.
Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry


Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)
Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.
Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)


Bidgood, J. C.
Gower, H. R.
Maclean, Fitzroy (Lancaster)


Biggs-Davison, J. A.
Graham, Sir Fergus
Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)


Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel
Grant, W. (Woodside)
Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)


Bishop, F. P.
Grant-Ferris Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)
Maddan, Martin


Black, C. W.
Green, A.
Marlowe, A. A. H.


Body, R. P.
Gresham Cooke, R.
Marples, A. E.


Boothby, Sir Robert
Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)
Marshall, Douglas


Bossom, Sir A. C.
Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)
Mathew, R.


Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.
Gurden, Harold
Maude, Angus


Boyle, Sir Edward
Hare, Hon. J. H.
Mawby, R. L.


Braine, B. R.
Harris, Reader (Heston)
Maydon, Lt. -Comdr. S. L. C.


Bromley-Davenport, Lt. -Col. W. H.
Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)
Medlicott, Sir Frank


Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry
Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd)
Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.


Brooman-White, R. C.
Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)
Molson, A. H. E.


Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)
Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)
Moore, Sir Thomas


Burden, F. F. A.
Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.
Morrison, John (Salisbury)


Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)
Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel
Nabarro, G. D. N.


Campbell, Sir David
Heath, Edward
Nairn, D. L. S.


Carr, Robert
Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.
Neave, Airey


Cary, Sir Robert
Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)
Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)


Channon, H.
Hirst, Geoffrey
Nieolson, N. (B 'n' m' th, E. &amp; Chr'ch)


Chichester-Clark, R.
Holland-Martin, C. J.
Nield, Basil (Chester)


Cole, Norman
Horobin, Sir Ian
Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.


Cooper-Key, E. M.
Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence
Nugent, G. R. H.


Cordeaux, Lt. -Col. J. K.
Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)
Oakshott, H. D.


Corfield, Capt. F. V.
Howard, John (Test)
O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)


Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)
Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.


Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hn. H. F. C.
Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.
Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
Hughes-Young, M. H. C.
Page, R. G.


Crouch, R, F.
Hurd, A. R.
Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)


Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)
Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark(E'b'gh, W.)
Partridge, E.


Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)
Hyde, Montgomery
Peake, Rt. Hon. O.


Cunningham, Knox
Hylton-Foster, Sir H. B. H.
Peyton, J. W. W.


Currie, G. B. H.
Iremonger, T. L.
Pickthorn, K. W. M.


Dance, J. C. G.
Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)
Pilkington, Capt. R. A.


D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry
Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)
Pitman, I. J.


Deedes, W. F.
Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)
Pott, H. P.


Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.
Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)
Powell, J. Enoch


Doughty, C, J. A.
Johnson, Eric (Blackley)
Price, David (Eastleigh)


Drayson, G. B.
Jones, A. (Hall Green)
Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)


Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)
Kaberry, D.
Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.




Profumo, J. D.
Spearman, A. C. M.
Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.


Raikes, Sir Victor
Speir, R. M.
Vickers, Miss J. H.


Ramsden, J. E.
Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)
Vosper, D. F.


Rawlinson, P. A. G.
Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)


Redmayne, M.
Stevens, Geoffrey
Wall, Major Patrick


Rees-Davies, W. R.
Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)
Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)


Renton, D. L. M.
Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)
Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)


Ridsdale, J. E.
Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)
Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.


Rippon, A. G. F.
Storey, S.
Watkinson, H. A.


Robertson, Sir David
Summers, G. S. (Aylesbury)
Webbe, Sir H.


Robson-Brown, W.
Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)
Whitelaw, W. S. I. (Penrith &amp; Border)


Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)
Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)
Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)


Roper, Sir Harold
Thomas, Rt. Hn. J. P. L. (Hereford)
Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)


Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)


Russell, R. S.
Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)
Wills, G. (Bridgwater)


Schofield, Lt. -Col. W.
Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)
Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)


Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.
Thompson, Lt. -Cdr. R. (Croydon, S.)
Woollam, John Victor


Sharples, Maj. R. C.
Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Yates, William (The Wrekin)


Shepherd, William
Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)



Smithers, Peter (Winchester)
Touche, Sir Gordon
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Soames, Capt. C.
Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.
Mr. Studholme and




Colonel J. H. Harrison.




NOES


Ainsley, J. W.
Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.
Mikardo, Ian


Albu, A. H.
Gooch, E. G.
Mitchison, G. R.


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.
Moody, A. S.


Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)
Greenwood, Anthony
Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Grey, C. F.
Mort, D. L.


Awbery, S. S.
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)
Moss, R.


Bacon, Miss Alice
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)
Moyle, A.


Balfour, A.
Griffiths, William (Exchange)
Mulley, F. W.


Bartley, P.
Hale, Leslie
Neal, Harold (Bolsover)


Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.
Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)
Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)


Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)
Hannan, W.
Oram, A. E.


Benson, G.
Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)
Orbach, M.


Beswick, F.
Hastings, S.
Oswald, T.


Blackburn, F.
Hayman, F. H.
Padley, W. E.


Blenkinsop A.
Healey, Denis
Paget, R. T.


Blyton, W. R.
Herbison, Miss M.
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)


Boardman, H.
Hobson, C. R.
Palmer, A. M. F.


Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.
Holman, P.
Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)


Bowles, F. G.
Holmes, Horace
Pargiter, G. A.


Boyd, T. C.
Holt, A. F.
Parker, J.


Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth
Houghton, Douglas
Paton, J.


Brockway, A. F.
Howell, Denis (All Saints)
Peart, T. F.


Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.
Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)
Popplewell, E.


Brown, Thomas (Ince)
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Price, J. T, (Westhoughton)


Burke, W. A.
Hunter, A. E.
Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)


Burton, Miss F. E.
Hynd, H. (Accrington)
Probert, A. R.


Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Proctor, W. T.


Callaghan, L. J.
Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)
Pryde, D. J.


Carmichael, J.
Irving, S. (Dartford)
Pursey, Cmdr. H.


Champion, A. J.
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.
Rankin, John


Chapman, W. D.
Janner, B.
Reeves, J.


Chetwynd, G. R.
Jeger, George (Goole)
Reid, William


Clunie, J.
Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)
Rhodes, H.


Coldrick, W.
Jones, David (The Hartlepools)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)


Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch &amp; Finsbury)
Jones, Jack (Rotherham)
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)


Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)
Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)


Cove, W. G.
Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)
Ross, William


Craddook, George (Bradford, S.)
Kenyon, C.
Royle, C.


Cronin, J. D.
Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.
Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.


Cullen, Mrs. A.
King, Dr. H. M.
Short, E. W.


Daines, P.
Lawson, G. M,
Silverman, Julius (Aston)


Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.
Lee, Frederick (Newton)
Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)


Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)
Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)
Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)


Davies, Harold (Leek)
Lever, Harold (Cheetham)
Skeffington, A. M.


Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)
Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)
Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)


Delargy, H. J.
Lewis, Arthur
Slater, J. (Sedgefield)


Dodds, N. N.
Logan, D. G.
Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)


Dugdale Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)
MacColl, J. E.
Snow, J. W.


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
McGovern, J.
Sparks, J. A.


Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)
McKay, John (Wallsend)
Steele, T.


Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)
McLeavy, Frank
Stewart, Michael (Fulham)


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)
Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. (Ipswich)


Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)
Mahon, S.
Stones, W. (Consett)


Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)
Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)
Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.


Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)
Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)


Fernyhough, E.
Mann, Mrs. Jean
Stross, Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent, C.)


Fienburgh, W.
Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.
Sylvester, G. O.


Forman, J. C.
Mason, Roy
Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)


Eraser, Thomas (Hamilton)
Mayhew, C. P.
Taylor, John (West Lothian)







Thomas, George (Cardiff)
West, D. G.
Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)


Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Wheeldon, W. E.
Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)


Thornton, E.
White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)


Tomney, F.
White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.)
Winterbottom, Richard


Turner-Samuels, M.
Wilkins, W. A.
Yates, V. (Ladywood)


Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Willey, Frederick
Younger, Rt. Hon. K.


Viant, S. P.
Williams, David (Neath)
Zilliacus, K.


Warbey, W. N.
Williams, Ronald (Wigan)



Weitzman, D.
Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Mr. Pearson and




Mr. James Johnson.

Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee if we could know now what the intentions of the Government are for this evening. We have made a certain amount of progress, just about, I think, as much as we did yesterday, measured by the Notice Paper, and I am sure that the Committee as a whole would be grateful if the Chancellor would tell us what he has in mind.

Mr. R. A. Butler: I am entirely in the hands of the Committee. The position is as follows, that we are to have a debate on dustbins and other similar objects; then a debate on calor gas and electricity; then debates, so far as I can see, on electric kettles and on shopping bags; and then there is the Question, "That the Schedule be the First Schedule to the Bill."
The view of the Government is that we are sure that it is necessary to resolve the Question, "That the Schedule be the First Schedule to the Bill," by the end of business on Monday. If that is the case, the choice before the Committee and the Government is whether we go on all night and get through one or two of these Amendments or whether we accept the opinion of the Government that it is necessary to resolve the Question, "That the Schedule be the First Schedule to the Bill." by the end of Monday evening.
I think the decision that we should get that Question by the end of Monday evening is a sensible one, and I should think on the whole that in that case we should consider the Amendment on dustbins, buckets and pails, and others that may be taken with it, tonight, and, if that is the case, that that should be our last work tonight.
I want to make it quite clear that the Government must insist that the Amendments concerned with space heaters, electric kettles, shopping bags—all the Purchase Tax—should be concluded on

Monday. I must reserve this right, in order that there may be no misleading impression that if we cannot do that by the normal time for the conclusion of business, we may have to ask the Committee to sit late. But I do not want to ask the Committee to sit late, and my object in making this statement now is to try to prevent our sitting late tonight.
We shall have spent five days on the Purchase Tax by Monday evening, and I should think it reasonable to expect that we could finish consideration of the Schedule by then. Looking round the Chamber after four days' discussion of the Purchase Tax, unless I misinterpret the physiognomies of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, I think I discern signs of relief as well as satisfaction that that may be the case, and I cannot believe that I shall be accused of not having allowed ample opportunity for discussion of the Purchase Tax when we shall have spent five days upon it by the end of business on Monday.
If we can proceed on that basis then it clearly follows—and the Leader of the House will regularise the matter in his announcement of business tomorrow—that an extra day will be necessary for the Committee to consider the Finance Bill on Tuesday. That would be a day reserved for the Revenue provisions, which, on close examination, I think can be carried through in a day's sitting. Again in that case I have to reserve the position of my hon. Friends and everybody else interested in the Revenue situation, and to reserve the possibility again of sitting late, but again I think it should be possible, on Tuesday, to do as I have indicated. The Government's intention is to complete the Committee stage of the Finance Bill and finish the Clauses relating to the Revenue, which do not, perhaps, excite quite so much local or human interest as do the Clauses relating to the Purchase Tax, important though they are and much as they must be debated. If we can work to a programme of that sort, then the Government will have been seen


to have allotted an extra day for the Committee stage, which I think is more than reasonable.
9.45 p.m.
I think that five days in which to discuss the Purchase Tax is quite sufficient in view of the immense number of discussions which we have had. If that can be the basis of an understanding, I think that we can proceed tonight simply to ask the Committee to finish consideration of the next Amendment on dustbins before rising, That would prevent us from sitting up all night, leave us with a reasonable day's debate on Monday, and give an extra day for the Revenue Clauses on Tuesday.
I can only repeat that it is the Government's intention to dispose of the Purchase Tax Schedule—the First Schedule—on Monday, because we must proceed with the Finance Bill, and to finish the Committee stage of the Bill with consideration of the Revenue Clauses on Tuesday. I do not think that that imposes an undue burden on hon. Members and, for that reason, I do not see why we should not work on both these days for normal times.
I say, in conclusion, that I do not think that if we were to sit all night we should make undue progress compared with the progress which I am suggesting, and which I hope that the Committee will regard as reasonably generous and give credit for to the Leader of the House. If we proceed on that programme, I do not think that we shall be any worse off than by sitting tonight and again launching forth on many discussions on Purchase Tax, such as we have already had.

Mr. Gaitskell: Let me give credit to the Leader of the House and to the Patronage Secretary for absenting themselves from our proceedings for so long. I mean that in no offensive sense to the Leader of the House. Associated, as he is, with the sinister figure of the Patronage Secretary, we have got into the habit of feeling that when he with his alter ego, appears there is apt to be interference with our business; but he has kept away, as we asked that he should, and he has refrained from intervening.
To come to the Chancellor's statement, I think I should say, first, that the suggestion that we should take the next group of Amendments—dustbins, I think, is the

main subject here—and then adjourn seems to me and, I believe, to my hon. Friends a not unreasonable one. It is, broadly, in accordance with what we did yesterday.
As to the Revenue Clauses, and the other three Clauses of the Bill, there is no doubt that these are much less controversial than the Purchase Tax Clause, and are much more technical. Although, even here, I cannot give any undertaking, nor is there any question of any agreement, I think that probably there will not be such lengthy discussions on these Clauses as there have been on the Purchase Tax Clause, and it may well be, as the Chancellor has said, particularly if he meets some of our Amendments, that we can deal with them in a day.
As to the remaining question, namely, completing our discussions on the Purchase Tax rates, and on the Schedule as a whole, by Monday evening, I must in all honesty make it plain that I cannot give any undertakings for this side of the Committee, nor do I intend in any way to restrict the rights of my hon. Friends to speak on the Purchase Tax, because they feel very strongly on this subject. They have constitutency interests, and it would be wrong for me to do so. I would add that I take note of the Chancellor's proposals. If one compares the amount which we have
to get through on his programme with the pace at which we have gone during these last two days there is no great difference between the pace at which we are going now and the pace at which we should go on Monday. Perhaps that will give the right hon. Gentleman some encouragement and hope that at some time in the course of Monday he may reach his goal. I cannot say more than that. It is a matter for the Government to decide, and not for us, how long they keep us, but so far as tonight is concerned I would think that to take the next Amendment and adjourn after that was not unreasonable.

Mr. R. A. Butler: I understand the right hon. Gentleman's difficulty in not being able to give an absolute undertaking, but in view of there not being an absolute agreement—which sometimes can be reached in all good faith—the reasons for which I understand, I must say that it is the Government's intention, even if we have to sit late, that debate


on the First Schedule—the Purchase Tax Schedule—should be finished on Monday. Otherwise, I do not think that it would be fair to hon. Members who are interested in the Revenue Clauses, and I have to think of both sides of the Committee and of hon. Members who have made representations to me.
If the Committee bears that in mind, there is no danger of charges of bad faith. It simply means that we should have to sit late for the convenience of hon. Members. It is possible that, having repeated the arguments so often to each other that we should know them by heart now, we shall be playing the same record on Monday. That being so, we should be able to finish at a reasonable hour on Monday.

Mr. Gaitskell: There may be, of course, some new records. There is no question of an understanding, but, at the same time, we take note of what the Chancellor has said in his statement of the Government's intentions. In those circumstances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

The Temporary Chairman (Sir Austin Hudson): The next Amendment is in page 11, line 12, to leave out:
dustbins, buckets, pails' and the words".
We shall, if the Committee agrees, consider with it the Amendments to leave out pedal operated sanitary bins and also coal hods and coal scuttles.

Mr. Frank Allaun: I beg to move, in page 11, line 12, to leave out:
dustbins, buckets, palls' and the words".
The injustice of a tax on articles like dustbins is so manifest that I do not intend to speak on the Amendment for more than five minutes. I appeal to the Chancellor to be big enough to admit that in this case he has made a mistake.
As a new Member, this is the first debate on the Finance Bill that I have had the privilege of attending, and I must admit that I have been staggered to find that, with one exception, every speaker from the opposite side of the Committee has opposed the Chancellor's proposals yet at the end of the debate the proposals have had to be pressed to a Division and no concession has been

made. I hope that in this most glaring case a concession will be made.
My main point is that the poorest family in the land must possess a dustbin. The old-age pensioner, the Service pensioners, the widow, the father of the family earning an unskilled labourer's rate, all must have a dustbin. The average increase in the price of dustbins as the result of Purchase Tax is 10s. 6d. The increase varies slightly from 9s. 10d. to 11 s. 6d. Taking the lowest increase of 9s. 10d., a dustbin which at present costs 26s. 3d. will in future cost 36s. Id. To many hon. Members in this House that will not matter a great deal. In fact it would not matter if a dustbin cost 136s. 1d. However, to many families, not only in my constituency but in scores of others represented here, this increase is nothing short of a minor calamity.
I take the case of a man not on the lowest income such as an old-age pensioner, but an engineering labourer, whose rate today is £6 12s. for a 44-hour week. Incidentally, while it may be pointed out that some people earn overtime and bonus, there are hundreds of thousands of engineering labourers in this country getting the flat rate of £6 12s. a week. After stoppages and fares and charges for canteen meals he may go home with £5 15s. a week on which to keep his family. When his wife tells him that he must buy a dustbin, which will no longer cost 26s. 3d. but 36s. 1d., what will be the effect of that news? Whilst it may not be appreciated by some hon. Gentlemen opposite, most working-class families live on a week to week budget. They cannot do otherwise. If the family of a man having £5 15s. a week is presented with a bill for 36s. Id. it can only mean that they will go short of food that week. That is something which no decent Government would want to cause.
In many cases local authorities have introduced municipal dustbin schemes. Why did they do it? The reason is that there were so many disputes between landlord and tenant as to whose was the responsibility to provide a dustbin that in many cases none was provided and the rubbish was left in the street. This obviously could not be allowed to continue and so, rather than continue these disputes which often ended in the law court, many municipalities have introduced a dustbin scheme. I can only think


it is reasonable to suppose that if the cost of a dustbin increases from 26s. 3d. to 36s. 1d. the tendency will be for those disputes to continue.
The Chancellor has imposed a tax of 30 per cent. on dustbins, which were previously tax free. I assure the Committee that in those cases where a municipality is providing dustbins, the tax will be not 30 per cent. but 39 per cent. This is the explanation. Because they are large buyers of dustbins they are able to buy direct from the manufacturer at a considerably lower cost than if they bought one or two dustbins at a time. The anomaly is that the 30 per cent. Purchase Tax is imposed, not on the price which the local authority actually pays, but on the price that it would have to pay if it bought in smaller quantities. Thus, in the case of Salford the price of a dustbin has risen from 26s. 3d. to 36s. 1d., an increase of not 30 per cent. but 39 per cent.
10.0 p.m.
This applies to the great majority of municipal undertakings, but I should like to quote a letter from the Town Clerk of Salford:
This authority, in common with other authorities deals directly with manufacturers, and it is understood from their representatives that, after consultation with Her Majesty's Customs and Excise, the manufacturers have been informed that it will be necessary for them to charge Purchase Tax upon the wholesale value even though the price charged for the bin will remain at existing rates.
If hon. Members check this with their own authorities, they will find that the rate is not 30 per cent. but 39 per cent., although previously no tax was charged.
Salford uses about 6,000 bins a year, and this represents an extra £3,000. Manchester uses 40.000 bins a year, which means an extra £23,000 per annum, nearly ½d. rate. In East Ham, which, I gather, is not the wealthiest of communities in London, it will mean roughly extra on the rates.
This matter affects not only local authorities but the trade itself. I wish to quote some figures from the C.W.S. as a large distributor of dustbins. I am sure I need not assure hon. Members that private enterprise is in exactly the same difficulty as the Co-operative movement. Dustbins, which cost 36s. each, are sup-

plied by the C.W.S. to Co-operative societies, as large buyers, at 29s. 6d. each, but the Purchase Tax will be based not on the price that they pay but on the price that they would have to pay if they did not buy so many, which surely is anomalous.
I do not claim to be an economic expert. Like the ordinary man-in-the-street, I am a little suspicious of some of the high-powered economic experts whose main achievement apparently is to make simple things look complicated. I am not referring to the Economic Secretary.

Mr. Jack Jones: The Economic Secretary makes complicated things look more complicated.

Mr. Allaun: It seems to me that the real economic genius is the man who can explain a complicated situation simply.
According to our economic experts—we have heard this ad nauseam during the last few days—the purpose of applying Purchase Tax to this wide range of goods is to cut down consumption. Is the purpose of this provision to cut down the consumption of dustbins? Do the Government want our people to go without dustbins? If that is the Government's intention, I think our medical officers of health will have a great deal to say about it. If we are later told that the object is to cut down the use of metal in order to pile up exports of motor cars, we have to balance which is the more important: to pile up the exports of motor cars, or to pile up the results of typhoid, enteric fever and the diseases which can arise in hot weather if there is not an adequate supply of dustbins.

Mr. Jack Jones: Germ warfare.

Mr. Allaun: I have been driven to the conclusion that that is not at all the Government's intention. The real purpose of imposing Purchase Tax on what are the most obvious necessities is deliberately to cut the standard of living of the working people and to convince big business that the party opposite is on the road back to 1931. I can see no other explanation, because at the very time that the Government are taxing necessities, they are lifting the tax off luxuries.
When I went home last week and told my wife that they were taxing dustbins, she asked me, "What does the Chancellor want? Does the Chancellor want us to


make dustbins of cut glass and silver, because those are the things from which the Purchase Tax is being lifted?" If the Government's purpose is to reduce inflation, they would have done better to have accepted the proposal from this side of the Committee that we cut the period of National Service. That would have gone much further towards reducing inflation. I do not know whether the Chancellor considers that a relevant point, but I know that the general public does.
To conclude—[HON. MEMBERS: "Go on."] Frankly, I have not acquired the art of being able to spin out to 30 minutes something I meant to say in five. I meant to say in conclusion that I am quite certain that the general public of all political views, local authorities of all political views and Members of this Committee of all political views, believe that there should not be a penny tax on dustbins.

Mr. J. Idwal Jones: I want to draw the attention of the Committee to only one item, dustbins. Robert Louis Stevenson once wrote an essay entitled, "A plea for gas lamps," and tonight I want to make a plea for dustbins. He started his essay by saying:
Cities built, the task was to light them.
We can develop that by saying, "Coal fires having been invented, the task is to collect the ashes". Dustbins provide a fair solution to that problem but I regret to say that the Purchase Tax will complicate that fair solution. As most of my hon. Friends have said, Purchase Tax is wrong in principle. We tolerated it in war-time for the simple reason that the material sacrifices which we were asked to make were not to be compared with the sacrifices in life and limb which were asked of some people at that time. Now, more than ten years after the war, Purchase Tax is imposed even more savagely than years ago.
We have been told from the Government benches that there is a pattern behind all this. I must admit that I have been unable to see the pattern. I have been able to see one strand in it—its universality; it has brought into the scope of the tax such a wide range of commodities that not only are the less necessary goods included but so also are the essential goods. That is why the Purchase Tax is bad in principle.
We were told by hon. Members opposite a few nights ago that Purchase Tax is based on anomalies. I go further than that and say that in a large number of cases it is based on an injustice. It is an all too easy method, in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of exploiting people's needs in order to secure an increase in revenue. I suggest that a Victorian economist of the radical school could hardly have visualised such a turn of events in the fiscal policy of this country towards the middle of this century.
We are at the mercy of the Chancellor, yet I beg him to take heed of the points which we shall make. We have been told, correctly, that the purpose of the tax is twofold—in the first instance, to induce people to refrain from buying; and, secondly, if they refuse to refrain from buying, then to tax those who so refuse. In other words, the purpose is either to reduce demand or to increase revenue.
Is the object of the tax on dustbins to reduce demand? Will any hon. Member suggest that the object of the Purchase Tax on dustbins is to reduce the demand for dustbins? Do people buy dustbins at any time other than when they have to buy them? Do people examine dustbins periodically for tiny holes in order to look for signs of wear and tear? I suggest that there is no commodity today which is allowed to assume more of a state of collapse before it is replaced than the dustbin.

Mr. H. Hynd: A Tory Government.

Mr. Idwal Jones: It is only when the handle is loose and rotten and its rotundity has yielded to elongation, and when the lid no longer fits; only when the rigidity of its vertical position has become telescopic, that people are prepared to dispose of their dustbin. If I may speak in the language of the economist, the demand is inelastic. People will not chase around looking for dustbins to buy because prices have fallen nor will they refrain from buying dustbins because of the tax.
The dustbin will be bought when it has to be bought. The tax is therefore unjust because it is a tax on a necessity. It becomes a revenue-raising device pure


and simple and it affects not only the individual but also the local authorities. Schools, hospitals, houses—all must have dustbins. My hon. Friend has already mentioned that local authorities order them; but there is one point which I should like to mention to the Chancellor.
10.15 p.m.
Local authorities buy dustbins direct from the manufacturers. They negotiate to get the best possible terms. Although the Budget proposes a tax of 30 per cent., in actual practice that 30 per cent. will become at least 36 per cent. and may reach even 40 per cent. The reason for that is very simple. Before calculating Purchase Tax, the manufacturer adds an uplift to the negotiated price. At the risk of being as dry as the dust in a dustbin I shall venture to give an example.
Prior to the Budget, a local council with which I am very familiar had agreed to buy 100 bins for £142. Immediately
after the Budget imposition of a 30 per cent. tax the manufacturers added, as uplift, 20 per cent. to the agreed price, and it is on that enhanced price that the 30 per cent. is added. A 30 per cent. uplift on £142 gives a figure of £170 10s. It is on that £170 10s. that the 30 per cent. tax is calculated, and the final price becomes £193. An increase of £51 on an order originally valued at £142 is a very substantial increase indeed.

Mr. Coldrick: To clarify that point, I think that my hon. Friend should make it abundantly clear that it is not the manufacturer who adds that notional figure. It is the Chancellor who insists that that notional uplift is added before the tax is calculated.

Mr. Idwal Jones: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend.
One cannot wonder that local councils are passing resolutions protesting about this. I have one such resolution here which reads:
That this Council is gravely concerned at the financial policy of Her Majesty's Government, which must inevitably result in a very considerable increase in the cost to local authorities in the carrying out of their functions.
On this side of the Committee we have not the power of compulsion. Instead, we must try persuasion, and appeal to

the Chancellor to abolish the tax on dustbins.

Mr. Howell: As the defence of this imposition is to be made by a Birmingham Member of Parliament, the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, whose constituency borders on mine, I am particularly pleased to have this opportunity of attacking it. The City of Birmingham will be as hard hit as any, and will certainly expect its Members to say something about the economic, social and hygienic effects of the proposals. As we are considering not only dustbins, but buckets, pails, sanitary bins, and coal scuttles it will be necessary to broaden the debate.
First I want to say a word or two about dustbins. In company with most other local authorities, the Salvage Committee of the Birmingham City Council passed a strong resolution and sent a lengthy letter, of which no doubt the Economic Secretary will have received a copy, and no doubt the citizens of Birmingham will be interested to hear the hon. Gentleman's defence of the tax on dustbins. Although I would not like to prejudge his defence of the tax before we have heard it, I am bound to say that, having heard every other defence on these Budget proposals, the dustbin would appear to be the appropriate receptacle into which these defences should be placed.
Birmingham buys 40,000 dustbins a year, and the average increased cost of these dustbins, as has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun), will be about 10s. each. My mathematics being of the same order as those of the Minister of Housing and Local Government, I would say that 40,000 times 10s. shows that the increased cost to the citizens of Birmingham is to be £20,000 per annum, which is an enormous amount.
We have already considered whether the effect of this tax will encourage people to buy fewer dustbins. Such a suggestion is absurd. No one hoards dustbins. No one buys new dustbins until the old ones have worn out. Therefore, it is clear that as there is an obligation on local authorities under the Public Health Act, 1936, to maintain reasonable health conditions and to provide dustbins, we have still got to have these dustbins whatever


their cost. Therefore, this must be a most inflationary tax.
We cannot escape the fact that if the Public Health Act, 1936, says that we are to have dustbins and if the cost is to be higher, the Chancellor is inciting local authorities to spend more public money. Having listened to the Chancellor and his colleagues, I have gathered that the purpose of this Budget is to encourage local authorities and other people, particularly in the public sector, to spend less. It is quite clear that that will not be the case with dustbins. There have been many legal arguments about who should provide dustbins, whether it should be the owner or the occupier, but one thing remains clear, namely, that whoever is to provide them, we must have dustbins.
The Chancellor told us that another purpose of the Budget is to save steel. It may well be argued by the Economic Secretary that we must save steel and that this is an item which consumes galvanised steel. But, as I have said, we have to have dustbins, and we must have steel dustbins because no suitable substitute has been found. In Birmingham, we have tried rubber dustbins, which were completely unsatisfactory. There have been plastic dustbins, but they are so expensive as to be impracticable. Obviously, if we have plastic dustbins to please the Chancellor and to save steel, that will have an even greater inflationary effect because the cost would be higher than the £2 which the ordinary steel dustbin costs.

Mr. Bence: He would tax that.

Mr. Howell: Yes, he would tax that, obviously.
No one who has been engaged in local government can discuss dustbins without doing so in relation to public health. The constituency of the Economic Secretary, in which I live, has some of the worst housing conditions in the City of Birmingham, and so has my constituency of All Saints, which borders on it. Time and time again I have had representations made to me by people living in 16 houses in a courtyard without a sufficient number of dustbins.
There are unhygienic conditions in the Handsworth Division of Birmingham.
The Economic Secretary, who represents that Division, has produced a proposal tonight which will prevent many of the people living in the worst parts of his constituency from replacing their worn-out dustbins. It is disgraceful that, after four years of Tory rule, people in a neighbouring constituency from mine should be prevented from having new dustbins. We did not see the Economic Secretary in that part of his constituency during the General Election.

Sir E. Boyle: The hon. Member may not have seen me, but I was there.

Mr. Howell: As a matter of fact, I was in that constituency. I was more closely identified with that part of the hon. Gentleman's constituency than was the hon. Gentleman himself. Although I fought All Saints, I went home every night to Handsworth to sleep. I was in Handsworth every day and in that part of the constituency where the hon. Gentleman was not, because he was touring the Midlands.

Mr. Herbert Butler: Has the Economic Secretary got a dustbin?

Mr. Howell: Probably he has.
I have made my point that there are courtyards and backyards in the hon. Gentleman's constituency where the residents require dustbins, and that the hon. Gentleman is doing his best to prevent his constituents from living in suitable hygienic conditions.
This increase of £20,000 a year will put up the rates and that, again, is an inflationary measure. According to the hon. Gentleman's friends, the rates in Birmingham are already too high and they are to be forced higher because of this direct tax. Replying to the last debate, the Economic Secretary said that it was absolutely essential to impose the tax to reduce inflation. It is difficult to relate a number of the things that we are discussing to the general position, but I have no doubt that he will tell us that again. After dustbins we come to buckets—[HON. MEMBERS: "Bookits?"] I am not apologising for my Birmingham dialect. It may not be so pleasing to the ear as the Celtic or the Lancashire dialect —[HON. MEMBERS: "Or the Oxford dialect"]—or the Oxford dialect, but it is very much down to earth.

Mr. Jack Jones: And it is still a bucket.

Mr. Howell: Yes, and, of course, if one does not have a dustbin one must have a bucket in which to put rubbish.
I am concerned about this because, unfortunately—or rather, fortunately for me —I have recently become married and I am busy buying buckets which are an essential part of the household goods that I require. I am bearing the burden of the increased cost of furniture and buckets and the like, and I consider this a great imposition on young married couples.
I remember that during the Election we had the benefit of a visit by the Economic Secretary's right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power, who told us that the great slogan in the Election was, "We shall provide a house and a car for every family"—

Mr. Jones: But no bucket.

Mr. Howell: A bucket is a household necessity.
When I heard the Minister of Fuel and Power use that slogan it reminded me of the pronouncement of another great Birmingham politician of about sixty years ago, Mr. Jesse Collins, who tried to capture votes for the Conservatives with the slogan, "Three acres and a cow." We never had the three acres and a cow.

Mr. Jones: What is the good of having cows if there are no buckets to milk them into. [Laughter.]

Mr. Howell: It is quite clear, despite the general joviality about this matter, that it is indeed very difficult for young married people today to set up homes under the burden of the impositions of this Budget and the Finance Bill. When to these financial difficulties is added the credit squeeze, the high mortgage rate, and so on, it is almost impossible to encourage young married people to become part of a property-owning democracy. I feel that I am justified in mentioning that aspect of the result of Government policy.
The next item on this list is penal-operated sanitary bins. If ever there was a tax on hygiene and public health it is the tax upon pedal-operated sanitary bins. To imagine that people go round buying pedal-operated sanitary bins to such an extent that it creates inflationary pressure is absolutely fantastic. Anyone who serves on a hospital management com-

mittee knows perfectly well that hospitals must have these bins.
I notice the Economic Secretary rubbing his hands, which is a characteristic gesture of his when he is in high spirits. Why should he be in high spirits about this proposal to impose an extra tax on pedal-operated sanitary bins is beyond my comprehension. It is a very serious matter indeed for our Health Service. The Chancellor will have to provide more money towards the extra cost of these pedal-operated sanitary bins and dustbins which our Health Service must continue to have.
It is the same with coal scuttles. I do not want to go through all the argument about young married people, but every household must have a coal scuttle —except that the Minister of Fuel and Power is doing his best to see that we have nothing to put in them. That little consideration aside, it is essential that coal scuttles should be provided in our households.
I therefore say that the effect of this tax is directly inflationary. The purchase of none of the things I have mentioned can be avoided, and the extra tax it is proposed to put on them will mean the spending of more money, especially by the public sector of industry, not so much the private sector about which we have been talking hitherto. Many people in industry and local government will be extremely perturbed by the effect of this tax.
I notice in paragraph (k) that there are certain essential commodities in this group on which the Chancellor has decided not to put this tax, although he has put it on most of these articles—dustbins and so on—and I should like to draw the attention of the Committee to them. They are sanitary pans, chambers, urinals and commode pans. I can only suggest, in conclusion, that the physical effects on the public of the Chancellor's Budget announcement is quite clearly the reason why those items have been exempted from the tax.

Mr. A. E. Hunter: I suppose that never before in history has the dustbin been more discussed in the House of Commons than on this occasion. Earlier the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that too much purchasing power was chasing too few goods. I am sure the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, who


makes a study of economic problems, will not agree that that is so in relation to dustbins.
I have been asked by the Urban District Council of Feltham to protest against the tax on dustbins. I do not think I can do better than read the letter sent to me by the council. It is as follows:
Dear Mr. Hunter,
I am instructed by the council to state that the present suppliers of dustbins have informed them that as a result of the Autumn Budget, Purchase Tax has been reintroduced on dustbins.
You will no doubt be aware that in this urban district dustbins for household refuse are provided by the council, the cost of the scheme being met from the general rate fund. As a result of the reintroduction of Purchase Tax on the bins, the cost
of a bin with lid has been increased by 11s. 6d. and the cost of a bin body only by 10s.
The appropriate committee of the council are therefore submitting the following recommendation to the council at their meeting on 28th November next:—
'That the council place on record a resolution deploring the action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in reintroducing Purchase Tax on dustbins resulting in a substantial increase in the cost of this essential public health service; further, that a copy of the resolution be forwarded to the local Member of Parliament requesting him to take a suitable opportunity of raising this matter in the House.'
I therefore say these few words in support of the resolution which will be sent by the urban district council. It seems to me rather stupid of the Chancellor to select the dustbin for tax. It must be more than 200 years ago that a Chancellor—I do not know his name, but the Economic Secretary, who studies history, may know it—introduced a window tax. Today we can still see windows which have been blocked up in old Georgian houses in London as a result of that tax. That tax shut out daylight; today there is to be a tax on dustbins and, in my opinion, it will affect public health in this country.
Even at this late hour I make an appeal to the Economic Secretary to inform his right hon. Friend that this is an unjust tax, a silly tax and a stupid tax, and even at this late moment we hope that the Chancellor will withdraw it.

Mr. W. T. Williams: I have sat through the greater part of the debates on the Budget and the Finance Bill, when the Government have expressed their will about what they want from

the people of the country fiscally. Over and over again I have asked myself, why has the Chancellor introduced this, that or the other unimportant, trivial and ridiculous measure in the Finance Bill and in the Housing Subsidies Bill to which we paid attention recently?
I cannot answer that question yet, although I have listened to each of the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who has spoken from the Treasury Bench giving his reasons. Indeed, as I listened to them, I was reminded of a story told some years ago—I believe from the Treasury Bench—by the present Lord Chancellor who at that time was a Member of this Committee. He said that once, when he was a young member of the Bar and was addressing a judge in a county court, he gave sixteen reasons why he had offered the defence he had done and was about to give another when the learned judge said to him, "Mr. Maxwell Fyfe, I believe you have given me sixteen reasons already, and I do not think very much of any of them." The young barrister, now the Lord Chancellor, replied, "I have another reason, your Honour, and I do not think very much of it either, but I offer it because one never knows what will appeal to your Honour."
The only difference between that story and the story of the Government's defence in our debates on the Bill is that we have been given more than sixteen or seventeen reasons, some of them mutually contradictory, in defence of the Purchase Tax proposals, and that they have come not only from one spokesman but from three. It depends largely on which of the three of them replies to us what answer we get. Suppose it is the Financial Secretary. What troubles him desperately is that somewhere or another there may be a yawning gap. That haunts his dreams, lest something escape tax, however necessary an article of use it may be. Above all, he dreads anomalies.
The Economic Secretary is quite different. His anxiety is that the £ shall be saved. So weak a vessel is the vessel in which the Government hold the £ that even the tiniest hole must be stopped up for fear some of its value may escape through it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has given many varying reasons as the days


have gone by, until now he answers not at all. In one of the many periodicals which I have been reading to observe comments on the Bill, it has been suggested that the Chancellor gives the appearance nowadays of being punch-drunk. Considering some of his tax proposals and his answers to our Amendments, I am persuaded that the kindest thing that can be said about the Chancellor is that at the beginning, before he introduced many of these measures, he must have been punch-drunk.
If it were not pathetic it would be ludicrous that hour after hour the Committee has been kept discussing taxes that in themselves are tiny, piffling and maliciously irritating. Indeed, so ridiculous have they appeared that not even one of the spokesmen from the Treasury Bench has been able to offer any more worthy reason for introducing these taxes than the absurd ones to which we have listened.
It will be interesting to hear what defence the Economic Secretary will make of the tax imposed on dustbins and refuse containers, pails, buckets and the like. The Financial Secretary, in an earlier debate, said that none of these taxes would of themselves mean any substantial amount in revenue. It was suggested earlier that possibly the revenue that would accrue to the Exchequer—if I am wrong, undoubtedly the Economic Secretary will correct me—as a result of these taxes would be less than £1 million and probably not more than £500,000.
10.45 p.m.
If that is so, if the amount is small, we must conclude either that the Financial Secretary has had a great part to play in the imposition of the tax because he is afraid that some anomaly might escape, or the original statement made by the Chancellor of the reason for these taxes has influenced the Chancellor's mind, namely, that he is anxious to prevent steel being unnecessarily used. Either of these must be the reason, for it cannot be that in this case it is the Chancellor's intention to damp down purchasing power.
It would be wearisome to repeat the arguments of my hon. Friends who have said most cogently that people do not buy dustbins for love of doing so. They buy them because they must. Quite apart from all the other factors mentioned by

my hon. Friends, the imposition of increased tax on dustbins is a tremendous burden upon local authorities. I am sure that the Economic Secretary, in his reply, will be bound to refer to that fact, and also to the considerations of health and hygiene which ought to have weighed with the Chancellor before he made these essential articles of toilet and public sanitation more difficult to obtain. This is a tax which produces great anomalies to which I would ask the Minister to pay attention.
It is the custom of many local authorities either to purchase dustbins themselves or to encourage landlords of blocks of flats to purchase dustbins of a particular kind. In Hammersmith, which is now only part of my constituency, thanks to the machinations of the Boundary Commission, the local authority has adopted the practice, which I believe to be general in London, of encouraging the landlords of large blocks of flats, as a measure of economy, to purchase what are known as "Paladin" refuse containers. These have a capacity of 1¼ cubic yards compared with only one-ninth of that capacity possessed by ordinary dustbins. These containers are used in large blocks of flats, hotels and restaurants. They are not purchasable in the shops. They have to be bought by contract.
The result of the Budget proposals is that the tax on these dustbins ranges from £4 16s. and £7 3s. 6d., according to the type purchased.
It is, of course, a substantial and immediate burden on public authorities, who use them in hospitals, etc. It creates a sales resistance from owners of blocks, of flats, hotels and other large buildings who would otherwise purchase them. If, on the other hand, the Purchase Tax range includes covered "Paladin" dustbins, the tax is increased by a further £1 6s., making a total of £8 9s.
Owners of blocks of flats and hotels and hospital authorities are encouraged to purchase this type of dustbin. If they did not do so, they would have to purchase eleven ordinary dustbins, because one of these refuse containers is equivalent to eleven dustbins. Therefore, if the Chancellor's intention is to save steel, one of these dustbins is very much more effective in carrying out that intention than would be the case if local, private and public authorities were to revert to the purchase of the smaller dustbins.
Another important point, which I have been asked by the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee to raise, is that the use of these dustbins is not only a tremendous saving of steel, and should therefore be encouraged, but is also a saving in manpower. It will be recognised that one of the great difficulties with which local authorities are faced—those who do their own refuse collecting —is getting refuse collectors. If one of these large refuse containers is used, it is possible for one driver and one mate to transfer the refuse mechanically from the Paladin container to the refuse collection lorry, instead of having a normal team of one driver and three or four men. That is a substantial saving, very considerably more than the Chancellor is likely to get from putting tax on these refuse containers.
The tax will bear heavily on the purchasers of these containers. The increase in price will be from £21 to £41. In those circumstances I urge the Chancellor, by reason of the saving in steel and especially by reason of the tremendous saving in manpower, very carefully to consider whether he cannot remit this tax. It would be easy to do. These refuse containers are not bought on the public market and are suitable only for certain kinds of installations and are in every case bought by contract.

Mr. H. Butler: I want to talk about this dustbin and breadboard Budget only in relation to what has happened since the Tory Government have been with us. I live in my constituency and I was born there. Since 1951, I have seen a continual deterioration of the refuse containers there. What is happening under this beneficent Government is that we are not even getting normal dustbins. There are many cardboard dustbins which apparently contain the Conservative manifesto, "The Road to Freedom." All sorts of other things are used to contain the refuse that the dustmen have to collect. Anyone in London who walks through our streets today can see that we have not even metal containers as dustbins. There is a difficulty in purchasing dustbins, and this tax will make the situation even more difficult.
The Economic Secretary must turn his attention to what is happening in our big towns instead of concentrating upon the

papers contained in his very important-looking files. It is the facts of life we have to face instead of the theories. If it is true—and it is true—that people cannot afford dustbins now, what is the point of increasing the cost and making it more difficult for them to buy dustbins?
Anyone connected with a local authority knows what happens when the dustmen come along—those hard-working gentlemen of the community who deserve higher wages than they are getting now, because they render a useful service. These are the people who ought to have the motor cars. When they collect the dust, because there are no proper bins they drop a lot of it in the streets and the corporation sweeper has to be sent out to sweep it up. Surely that is not Conservative planning. If we had proper dustbins we could have efficient services.
Turning to the effect of the increased costs on public services, I remind hon. Members that I drew attention to this situation the other day. Many hon. Members connected with hospital boards know that every time there is an increase in the price of the goods which we use in our hospitals, it means that the service which we can render to the patients is diminished. The Minister of Health has sent a circular to regional hospital boards telling us to keep our estimates for next year to the same figure as that for 1955–56. Yet the Chancellor increases the cost of everything we use in the hospitals. This is the worst tax he could have devised, and I hope that hon. Members opposite who have refrained from voting in recent discussions will this time go into the Lobby and destroy this iniquitous imposition.

Mr. Victor Yates (Birmingham, Lady-wood): I want to make a few comments to follow the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, All Saints (Mr. D. Howell). I have noticed that during most of the debate the Economic Secretary has had a smile on his face. That may be due to the fact that, for the first time in these debates, hon. Members opposite have not spoken. Are we to understand that hon. Members opposite have no interest in a matter which concerns the health of the people? There has not been a word from the other side. It may have been that which cheered the Economic Secretary.
11.0 p.m.
The hon. Gentleman knows that in the City of Birmingham we have had a considerable number of overcrowded houses for a number of years. It has been a great struggle to take action which would lead to improvement of the health of the people. One of the dangers which I see in not regarding this issue of dustbins as important to the people's health is that in the central areas of a city like Birmingham there is a considerable number of houses for which often there are not sufficient dustbins. The hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) mentioned Manchester. He said that 23,000 dustbins cost Manchester £40,000 yearly. I do not understand why it costs Manchester more than Birmingham has to pay. The extra cost to Birmingham is £20,000 for 40,000 dustbins.
I am informed from Birmingham that the life of a dustbin is eight years. I have had complaints from people who cannot get dustbins, and I should like the Chancellor, and the Government, to know that there are, in the overcrowded areas of cities like Manchester and Birmingham, a lot of houses which are infested with rats. Only today I addressed a communication about this to the housing manager of Birmingham. Recently I had communication also with the medical officer of health about the number of houses in my constituency which are infested with rats. I cannot think of anything of greater danger to health than that refuse should be exposed in a way which encourages such vermin.
We have raised a number of questions about Birmingham and there has been silence on the part of the Economic Secretary. This is a vital matter to the City of Birmingham. It affects health. Now, we understand there is to be imposed a tax which will place upon the local authority of Birmingham a burden of £20,000. Does it not mean that the city will be worse off than it is now by having to place a longer life than eight years upon dustbins? Of course, it will have to buy dustbins.
I think that this proposal is a disgrace. The hon. Gentleman did not go about during the General Election and say, "Vote for me, and I will put 10s. on each dustbin." I am not concerned about all these high falutin economic arguments about inflation and disinflation. I am concerned about the health of the people

of Birmingham, Manchester, and other cities. I ask the Government to think again about this matter, and to give an answer which will make the people understand that at least they consider the health of the nation, and will not tax it.

Mr. Moss: I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) on the excellent way in which he moved the Amendment. He raised a matter of common concern to many hon. Members in all parts of the Committee. It has been indicated, in the speeches of my hon. Friends, that the demand for dustbins, buckets and pails is inelastic.
The Government have said that the collection of these taxes is certain because they are imposed on the necessities of life. These taxes affect the health and cleanliness of the working people, and not only individuals, but institutions like churches, shops, firms and farms. It is of the utmost importance that we should understand that it is because these commodities have to be bought that a tax has been placed on them.
The idea is to mop up purchasing power. The Chancellor is forcing people to spend more on these things. Every time they buy one of these commodities the right hon. Gentleman wishes them to spend more so that they will have less to spend on other things. In a former speech the Chancellor referred to the fact that he is applying the Keynesian technique, but he must understand that in applying the technique that Keynes advocated, his action must appear to be fair to the people. I do not think the workers will tolerate the imposition of this class-prejudice taxation because they will not be convinced that all sections of the community are bearing an equal share of the burden. It cannot be said of the workers of this country that they are unwilling to make any necessary sacrifices, provided that they are convinced that those sacrifices are
being shared by everyone. That is not being done in this case.
This Budget will result in wage demands. According to the Economist this week, wage increases already conceded have amounted to almost £5 million a week, and if the claims pending are granted, the figure will be between £5 million and £6 million a week. The placing of Purchase Tax on commodities of this kind has justified a comment in the Financial Times that they have provoked


a wave of resentment, a reaction which it is surprising that the Treasury and the Cabinet combined did not foresee. If that be true, and there is reasonable cause for thinking that it is, the Chancellor has made a serious mistake. This is a burden which will constantly remind people of the way in which they have been treated, not only in the present circumstances, but in relation to the deceptive promises made earlier in the year.
That is a grave mistake, because it creates a sense of unfairness. I concede that when there is a gap in the balance of payments and an inflationary situation, some measures have to be taken to remedy the position, but the measures have to be fair to every section of the community, and these certainly are not.

Sir E. Boyle: We have had a most agreeable and interesting debate on this subject, and I should like to start by acknowledging the point of the hon. Member for Hackney, Central (Mr. H. Butler) who told me that I should acquaint myself with the facts of life; which, as an unmarried hon. Member of this Committee, I will certainly attempt to do.
The debate was opened with a moderate speech by the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun), who, at the end of his remarks to the Committee, admitted that he had not acquired the art of spinning a ten minutes' speech into half an hour. We hope to hear him often, but should like to tell him that we also hope that he does not acquire that art too quickly. The hon. Gentleman can be assured that there is no idea through this proposal to cut down the demand for dustbins.
The hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. Idwal Jones) was quite correct in thinking that there was not an elasticity of demand for dustbins, and I certainly have no idea of spreading germ warfare in my own constituency, as one hon. Member suggested. The hon. Member for Salford, East said that we wanted to cut down the standard of living for the working people; and as that statement has been made I must point out that consumers' expenditure, in real terms, is 9 per cent. above what it was in 1951. There is not much evidence there of cutting the standards of the people, and

this whole pots and pans proposal will add 0·15 to the cost-of-living index.

Mr. Allaun: But there could have been no attack on the working people until the hon. Gentleman and his party had secured an Election majority.

Sir E. Boyle: I am simply trying to get facts into proper perspective.
We had a very helpful speech by the hon. Member for Barons Court (Mr. W. T. Williams), who asked about the amount of revenue which was expected. All these figures are necessarily lacking in precision; they cannot be precise, but I understand that if all these Amendments which we are now discussing were accepted, revenue would be lost to a total of about £1 million.
On the question of the "Paladin" dustbin, about which the hon. Member spoke, I must say that that is new to me; but it would appear that what may be involved here is not just a saving of steel, but also a saving of manpower, and that is very relevant to our economic situation. I have taken a careful note of his speech, and I assure him that that point will be looked into.

Mr. Collins: Will the Economic Secretary bear in mind that this is "system equipment"? Will he also look into the matter of whether these are taxable because many are on wheels—on trucks which are not taxable.

Mr. W. T. Williams: I am given to understand by the Metropolitan Boroughs' Joint Standing Committee that these things are, in fact, taxed, and I should be very grateful if that could be looked into carefully.

Sir E. Boyle: The hon. Member for All Saints (Mr. D. Howell) made a very agreeable speech on the subject of Birmingham. He mentioned a part of my constituency where, he says, much of the housing is sub-standard. I am sorry he did not see me there more often during the Election campaign, but, perhaps, this was because he was more hard-pressed in his own constituency than I was in mine.
It is a mistake to think that the whole of this extra cost falls on local authorities or on occupiers of houses. I understand that in many cases landlords of property rented weekly provide dustbins themselves.

11.15 p.m.

Mr. Howell: It is regarded as good practice, and it certainly happens in Birmingham, that the local authority should provide dustbins. This is happening more and more.

Sir E. Boyle: I will not dispute that point now. I take the point about the local authorities, but I do not think that they are the only people affected in that way.
I do not want to take up too long because we want to get the business finished by half-past eleven, and, also, I have, during these last days, while listening to these debates, been impressed by the argument in a history book that I was reading, last week-end, by Mr. Steven Runciman, in which I read:
Amongst the unhappy delusions of mankind is the belief that a dispute can be settled by debate.
I must say that that has been borne out on a number of occasions.
The object of our proposals is that we think some curtailment of consumer demand is necessary for our balance of payments position. I need not repeat all those arguments now. They were put very fairly by the hon. Member for Meriden (Mr. Moss), and they were put very fairly, too, by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), who read a large part of my own speech which I delivered a week ago. I listened to my own gramophone record and thought it sounded reasonably well, so there is no need for me to deliver it again now.
I would say this to the hon. Member for Meriden. He has talked about burdens being fairly shared. Let us remember that this increase of tax on pots and pans is 0·15 of one point on the cost of living index, and, at the same time, we still have a steeply progressive system of direct taxation in this country; and I do not believe anybody today looking at our tax system as a whole could doubt that the burden of tax in this country is very fairly shared.

Mr. Jack Jones: Sir Charles, may we have your ruling that this debate will not automatically close when the main speaker for the Opposition has spoken?

The Chairman: That is nothing to do with me.

Mr. Anthony Greenwood: My hon. Friends who have moved and supported this Amendment have made an unanswerable case on hygienic,

economic and emotional grounds. I am sorry that we did not have a more agreeable speech from the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, because we are virtually giving the Chancellor a last chance to show himself in that generous mood of which we know he is capable. We have on many occasions during these discussions been extremely disappointed by the reaction of the Chancellor. We have gone to a great deal of trouble to help him. We have lost a great deal of sleep while thinking out ways and means of improving this Bill, and it would be courteous to the Committee if the Chancellor could give way upon this Amendment and show that he does listen to the arguments which are put forward.
We would have liked to have heard from the Economic Secretary why this particular list in this category has been singled out in this way for the addition of taxation. I think it is significant that the articles which the Chancellor is proposing to tax in this case—dustbins, buckets and lids for dustbins—were exempted as far back as 1947 by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), and in the difficult year of 1951 when there were heavy demands upon the metal industry made by the rearmament programme my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) exempted pedal-operated sanitary bins, coal hods and coal scuttles.
It is surely the most striking commentary on the right hon. Gentleman's tenure of office at the Treasury that after that long period of exemption he should have found it necessary to reimpose a regrettable tax of this kind. I cannot see how the right hon. Gentleman has resisted the temptation to close the yawning gap which is constituted by the other articles in this category which are still remaining exempt from taxation. I wish he could have explained his reasons for that, and I am sorry that my own Amendment on this subject—in page 11, line 12, after "pails" to insert:
chambers, urinals, commode pans and lids for any of those articles.
—is, unfortunately, not in order.
The Economic Secretary said that the Government have no desire to cut down the demand for dustbins and other commodities of this kind, but how tempting it will be for local authorities, particularly Tory-dominated local authorities, to go in for a little bit of economy and make


a dustbin last for nine years instead of eight. Then we will get all the dangers, to which my hon. Friends have referred, of flies, rats and smells that inadequate provision of this kind can constitute to the health of a community.
When we are expecting local authorities to undertake this kind of work, we find that the Chancellor imposes a tax of nearly 8s. in the £ upon local authorities—a 1d. rate, we have been told, in towns like Manchester, Birmingham and Salford; and no doubt that is a typical figure for the rest of the country. This tax is imposed just at the moment when the Chancellor is also increasing the cost of the furniture that local authorities are buying for their old people's homes, when he is increasing the tax on the chassis for their refuse lorries and when he is increasing the tax on the pottery for their children's homes.
It is surely absurd that the Treasury should be charging uplift upon dustbins. This is a most regrettable and retrograde step that the Chancellor is taking. It is an error of judgment on his part. He is doing it for less than £1 million a year, and I hope that tonight he will be big enough and generous enough to admit that he has made a mistake and to withdraw this proposal. But if he does not, we shall feel compelled to go into the Lobby against it. If, by some mischance, we should not be victorious, we shall go ahead on Monday in a determined effort to throw the whole of this Schedule into the dustbin, confident that at the General Election the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues will follow suit.

Mr. Jack Jones: I want to raise a point which has not been raised in the whole

of the debate. This tax is designed to save steel. Where I live, there are about 1,600 council houses. Each has a dustbin. In those houses live many steelworkers, all of whom have a great regard for the country's economic need, as has been proved over past years.

I do not entirely agree with many of my colleagues when they say that each local authority will spend more money on dustbins. Some will do so, but many will go half-way and say that the eight-year-old dustbin must last for nine years. The effect will be that corrosion will take place for an extra twelve months at the end of the dustbin's normal life.

I know just a little about steel. The dampest part of a dustbin is the bottom, and that is where the corrosion takes place. The men will roll out the dustbins and try to put them on to the carriers. The bins will split open. Dustmen will be going off duty with injuries to themselves and damages to their clothing. In the bottom of every dustbin the germs will be located to the greatest extent, for that is where it is damp and rotten. We shall find refuse on the pavements and there will be damaged dustbins, which it will be impossible to replace because of the labour shortage. The net result will be that instead of a member of the Government going to Geneva or somewhere else to talk about germ warfare, there will be Cabinet Ministers sitting here who are themselves bringing this about on our own doorsteps.

Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 229, Noes 187.

Division No. 61.]
AYES
[11.23 p.m.


Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.
Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel
Corfield, Capt. F. V.


Aitken, W. T.
Bishop, F. P.
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)


Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)
Black, C. W.
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hn. H. F. C.


Alport, C. J. M.
Body, R. F.
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.


Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)
Boothby, Sir Robert
Crouch, R. F.


Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)
Bossom, Sir A. C.
Cunningham, Knox


Arbuthnot, John
Boyle, Sir Edward
Currie, G. B. H.


Armstrong, C. W.
Braine, B. R.
Dance, J. C. G.


Ashton, H.
Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry
D' Avigdor-Coldsmid, Sir Henry


Atkins, H. E.
Brooman-White, R- C.
Deedes, W. F.


Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.
Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)
Dodds-Parker, A. D.


Baldwin, A. E.
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.


Balniel, Lord
Burden, F. F. A.
Doughty, C. J. A.


Barber, Anthony
Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A.(Saffron Walden)
Drayson, G. B.


Barlow, Sir John
Carr, Robert
Errington, Sir Eric


Barter, John
Cary, Sir Robert
Erroll, F. J.


Baxter, Sir Beverley
Channon, H.
Farey-Jones, F. W.


Bennett, Dr. Reginald
Cole, Norman
Fell, A.


Bidgood, J. C.
Cooper-Key, E. M.
Finlay, Graeme


Biggs-Davison, J. A.
Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.
Fisher, Nigel




Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.
Langford-Holt, J. A.
Redmayne, M.


Fletcher-Cooke, C.
Leavey, J. A.
Rees-Davies, W. R.


Fort, R.
Leburn, W. G.
Ridsdale, J. E.


Foster, John
Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)
Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)


Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)
Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)
Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)


Freeth, D. K.
Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)
Roper, Sir Harold


Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.
Linstead, Sir H. N.
Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard


George, J. C. (Pollok)
Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Russell, R. S.


Glover, D.
Lloyd-George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G.
Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.


Godber, J. B.
Longden, Gilbert
Sharpies, Maj. R. C.


Gower, H. R,
Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.
Shepherd, William


Graham, Sir Fergus
Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)
Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)


Green, A.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Smithers, Peter (Winchester)


Gresham Cooke, R.
Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry
Soames, Capt. C.


Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)
Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)
Spearman, A. C. M.


Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)
McLaughlin, Mrs. P.
Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)


Gurden, Harold
Maclay, Rt. Hon. John
Stevens, Geoffrey


Hare, Hon. J, H.
Maclean, Fitzroy (Lancaster)
Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)


Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)
McLean, Neil (Inverness)
Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)


Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)
Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)
Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.


Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)
Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)
Storey, S.


Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd)
Maddan, Martin
Studholme, H, G.


Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)
Maitland, Cdr. J.F.W. (Horncastle)
Summers, G. S. (Aylesbury)


Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)
Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)
Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)


Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.
Marlowe, A. A. H.
Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)


Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel
Marples, A. E.
Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)


Heath, Edward
Marshall, Douglas
Thomas, p. J. M. (Conway)


Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)
Mathew, R.
Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)


Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)
Maude, Angus
Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, S.)


Hill, John (S. Norfolk)
Mawby, R. L.
Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.


Hirst, Geoffrey
Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.
Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.


Holland-Martin, C. J.
Medlicott, Sir Frank
Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)


Hope, Lord John
Moore, Sir Thomas
Tilney, John (Wavertree)


Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.
Morrison, John (Salisbury)
Touche, Sir Gordon


Horobin, Sir Ian
Nabarro, G. D. N.
Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.


Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)
Nairn, D. L. S.
Tweedsmuir, Lady


Howard, John (Test)
Neave, Airey
Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.


Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)
Nicolson, N. (B 'n' m' th, E. &amp; Chr'ch)
Vickers, Miss J. H.


Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.
Nield, Basil (Chester)
Vosper, D. F.


Hughes-Young, M. H. C.
Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.
Walker-Smith, D. C.


Hulbert, Sir Norman
Oakshott, H. D.
Wall, Major Patrick


Hurd, A. R.
O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N).
Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)


Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.)
Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)


Hyde, Montgomery
Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N).
Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.


Hylton-Foster, Sir H. B. H.
Page, R. G.
Watkinson, H. A.


Iremonger, T. L.
Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)
Webbe, Sir H.


Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)
Peyton, J. W. W.
Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)


Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)
Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)


Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)
Pitman, I. J.
Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)


Johnson, Eric (Blackley)
Pott, H. P.
Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)


Kaberry, D.
Powell, J. Enoch
Wood, Hon. R.


Keegan, D.
Price, David (Eastleigh)
Woollam, John victor


Kerby, Capt. H. B.
Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)
Yates, William (The Wrekin)


Kerr, H. W.
Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.



Kershaw, J. A.
Profumo, J. D.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Kirk, P. M.
Raikes, Sir Victor
Mr. Gerald Wills and


Lagden, G w.
Ramsden, J. E.
Mr. Edward Wakefield.


Lancaster, Col. C. G.
Rawlinson, P. A. G.





NOES


Ainsley, J. W.
Callaghan, L. J.
Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)


Albu, A. H.
Carmichael, J.
Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)


Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)
Champion, A. J,
Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Chapman, W. D.
Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)


Awbery, S. S.
Chetwynd, G. R.
Fernyhough, E.


Baird, J.
Coldrick, W.
Fienburgh, W.


Balfour, A.
Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch &amp; Finsbury)
Fletcher, Eric


Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda
Forman, J. C.


Benson, G.
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)


Beswick, F.
Cronin, J. D.
Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N,


Blackburn, F.
Crossman, R. H. S.
Gibson, C. W.


Blenkinsop, A.
Cullen, Mrs. A.
Gooch, E. G.


Blyton, W. R.
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.


Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.
Davies, Harold (Leek)
Greenwood, Anthony


Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)
de Freitas, Geoffrey
Grey, C. F.


Boyd, T. C.
Delargy, H. J.
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)


Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth
Dodds, N. N.
Griffiths, William (Exchange)


Brockway, A. F.
Donnelly, D. L.
Grimond, J.


Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.
Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)
Hale, Leslie


Brown, Thomas (Ince)
Dye, S.
Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)


Burke, W. A.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)
Hamilton, W. W.


Burton, Miss F. E.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)
Hannan, W.


Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)







Hayman, F. H.
Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.
Skeffington, A. M.


Healey, Denis
Mason, Roy
Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)


Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)
Mayhew, C. P.
Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)


Herbison, Miss M.
Mikardo, Ian
Sorensen, R. W.


Hobson, C. R.
Moody, A. S.
Sparks, J. A.


Holman, P.
Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)
Stewart, Michael (Fulham)


Holmes, Horace
Mort, D. L.
Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. (Ipswich)


Houghton, Douglas
Moss, R.
Stones, W. (Consett)


Howell, Denis (All Saints)
Moyle, A.
Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.


Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Mulley, F. W.
Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.


Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)
Neal, Harold (Bolsover)
Sylvester, G. O.


Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)
Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)


Hunter, A. E.
Oram, A. E.
Taylor, John (West Lothian)


Hynd, H. (Accrington)
Orbach, M.
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Oswald, T.
Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)


Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)
Padley, w. E.
Thornton, E.


Irving, S. (Dartford)
Paget, R. T.
Tomney, F,


Janner, B.
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn


Jeger, George (Goole)
Palmer, A. M. F.
Warbey, W. N.


Jeger, Mrs. Lena(Holbn &amp; St. pncs. S.)
Pannell, Charles (Leeds, w.)
Watkins, T. E.


Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)
Pargiter, G. A.
Weitzman, D.


Johnson, James (Rugby)
Parker, J.
Wells, William (Walsall, N.)


Jones, David (The Hartlepools)
Parkin, B. T.
West, D. G.


Jones, Jack (Rotherham)
Pearson, A.
Wheeldon, W. E.


Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)
Plummer, Sir Leslie
White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)


Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)
Popplewell, E.
White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)



Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Wilcock, Group Capt. c. A. B.


Kenyon, C.
Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)
Willey, Frederick


King, Dr. H. M.
Probert, A. R.
Williams, David (Neath)


Lawson, G. M.
Proctor, W. T.
Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)


Ledger, R. J.
Pryde, D. J.
Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)


Lee, Frederick (Newton)
Rhodes, H.
Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)


Lever, Harold (Cheetham)
Robens, Rt. Hon. A.
Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)


Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Winterbottom, Richard


Lewis, Arthur
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Yates, V. (Ladywood)


Logan, D. G.
Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)
Younger, Rt. Hon. K.


MacColl, J. E,
Ross, William
Zilliacus, K.


McKay, John (Wallsend)
Short, E. W.



MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)
Silverman, Julius (Aston)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Mahon, S.
Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Mr. Wilkins and Mr. Arthur Allen


Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)
Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)



Question put and agreed to.

To report Progress and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. Oakshott.]

Committee report Progress to sit again Tomorrow.

Orders of the Day — NATIONAL SERVICE (PERSONAL CASE)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Oakshott.]

11.34 p.m.

Mr. Martin Lindsay: I make no apology for raising a constituency case at so late an hour as this for, as we all know, it is one of the oldest traditions of the House that one of our most important duties is to endeavour to put right the wrongs of our people. I submit that one of my constituents, whose name and address has been sent to my hon. Friend, has, if not a grievance, at any rate a very strong case—as strong a case as I can think of—for a compassionate exception being made to the regulations on his behalf. It is a young man who seeks to defer his National Service for a further period in order to qualify as a chartered accountant. I should explain

that he already has had his National Service deferred but that owing to two failures in his examinations he is still running behind schedule.
This is not the case of a man who says that he intends to obtain professional qualifications, applies for deferment on those grounds year after year, but, in fact, never takes the examinations at all. For this young man has already shown his determination and his ability by passing the intermediate examination. The fact that he did so after two failures should not, in my opinion, prejudice him, for everyone knows that examinations in accountancy are among the most difficult professional tests in the world. I would go so far as to say that I am not at all sure that it is not a more praiseworthy example of determination to pass a difficult examination at the third attempt than to sail through it at the first.
Nor is this a man who has brought forward specious excuses for his failures, as many might have been tempted to have done. That also ought to commend him to us. He is due to sit for his finals in accountancy in eighteen months' time—in May, 1957—but, having exhausted his deferments, he is due to be called up


fifteen months before his final examinations—in February, 1956, which, I need hardly point out, will make a serious break in his studies, a break which in many cases might well prove fatal.
I have the advantage of a letter from my constituent's tutor. After congratulating him on passing the intermediate examination by hard work, the tutor says:
I have no doubt in my mind that you will be successful at your first attempt at the final provided you pursue a concentrated course of study during the intervening period.
The letter goes on to say that it will be
a matter of serious and perhaps tragic consequence to your career if you are unable to obtain deferment to allow you to take part in the final.
I think that that letter speaks for itself.
It is often said that one of the things from which our country is suffering most today is a shortage of specialists, men with professional qualifications. Comparisons to our disadvantage in that respect are made between Great Britain and the United States and Soviet Russia. I suggest that in these marginal cases the Ministry of Labour should stretch a point and make exceptions to see that no young man is prejudiced from adding to our number of specialists merely because he wants a little longer than most do to pass his examinations.
This is not the case of a man who is seeking to get out of his obligations. All he is asking is to be given rather more time than usual to obtain his qualifications. I should say that his contribution to the Royal Air Force, which he has opted for when he joins up, would be much more effective if he were called up as a qualified accountant and posted to one of the many Royal Air Force accounts branches, than if he were called up a little earlier as an unqualified man.
The Parliamentary Secretary is always very approachable, and I am grateful to him for giving me three opportunities for having conversations about this case, and for the time that he has spent in looking into the details of it. I hope very much that when I sit down now he will be able to tell us that he is able to make the concession for which I so earnestly ask.

11.41 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and National Service (Mr. Harold Watkinson): My hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay) was kind enough to tell me about this case, and, therefore, I have had the opportunity to look into it very carefully. No one wants to be more sympathetic than I do or, indeed, my Department does, particularly to young men who are trying to complete their education or part of their education before they join the Armed Forces.
Our difficulty in these cases, of deferment for educational reasons, as I have said before from this Box, is that whatever we do must be fair and must be equally applied. We try to lay down some guidance to those responsible officials who have the very difficult task of trying to decide the problem of how much deferment a man should have, especially when he starts to fall behind in his studies. We did not set up the rules ourselves, but we took very careful note of what the learned and professional societies felt would be fair and proper if they were to maintain the general standards which they have tried to set over the years.
In the case of Mr. Billingham, to which my hon. Friend has referred, the first problem that arose was this, that he was, as has been said, studying to become a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants and I understand that the Institute says in its regulations that the intermediate examination could be taken and be passed within two to two-and-a-half years of entry into articles. We carefully went into this to try to decide how long the Ministry would allow for deferment of a young man who wanted to get through that intermediate examination. We doubled the period, and said we would allow, as we do allow today, four years' deferment to cover that initial stage which leads to the successful passing of the intermediate examination.
I am certain that my hon. Friend is right when he says that this man tried hard, and his case is made very attractive by the fact that he made no excuses. However, the unfortunate thing is that it took him longer than four years even to pass the intermediate examination. The rule we have agreed with the Institute is this. This is not some principle which we have thought up for ourselves. It is


indeed an agreed rule which we apply With the agreement of the Institute of Chartered Accountants. It states:
An articled clerk who has not passed the intermediate examination on completion of four years of his articles will be permitted to complete his articles but will immediately thereafter be required to undertake his National Service.
It is under that rule that my hon. Friend's constituent has been warned that he will have to start his National Service in February next year.
Rules are made sometimes to be broken and, therefore, I have looked at the matter very carefully to see whether we could fairly say that there was something exceptional about this case. One of the things which we
always look into is whether there is any history of illness or some compassionate reason which has interfered with the boy's education. This boy was honest enough to tell my hon. Friend that that was not so. Therefore, I am afraid that, much as we have tried, we have not been able to find anything which would enable us to say that this is a special case and, therefore, should not fall to be treated under the rules which we have agreed with the Institute of Chartered Accountants.
The difficulty then is that if we were going to let him go on and have a go at his final examination, and I do not doubt the evidence of his tutor that he might well pass, we should have to treat him better than we have treated a great many people in the past and indeed may treat a great many other cases in the future. Quite frankly, I think that would be wrong. If any Ministry were ever to fall into the error of making special cases for special people merely because they have gone to their Member of Parliament who has pleaded their case, we could not maintain the principle of fairness and equality upon which I am sure the whole of National Service rests.
I do not like to give negative answers. They do not help the people concerned very much. I tried, therefore, to see whether there was any other way in which we could help this young man, who I am sure badly wants to try to complete his qualifications. I am afraid that this will not entirely meet the point made by my hon. Friend, but I hope that it will do something at least to show that we have tried to do what we could to help. I

understand that it is quite normal for a young man, after passing his Intermediate examination, to continue his studies by means of a correspondence course. That course can be followed whether the man is actually doing his articles or not. There is an arrangement in the Royal Air Force, for which this young man has opted, whereby this correspondence course leading to the final examination of the Institute can be taken.
I hope and believe that it will be possible for Mr. Billingham, who, I understand, has been doing a correspondence course, to continue that course in the Royal Air Force. We will try to see that he is posted to a home station where perhaps he can be employed on accountancy work and, therefore, will not lose any practical experience. Consideration will also be given to allowing any further education facilities that he may need. Should he find that he must attend lecture courses arranged by one of the chartered accountant students' societies, if he applies to his education officer that will be arranged as far as is humanly possible and as far as Service needs will allow. The only difficulty that he may find will be in the first eight weeks of his recruit training. After that, I believe that it will be possible to give him a chance to go on with this correspondence course and, if necessary, to attend any lecture courses that may be available.
All I can say further to my hon. Friend is that I very much regret that we cannot give the deferment for which he has asked for his constituent, not because I do not think that he has made the case, not because there is not a case, but, I am afraid, for the sole reason that if we do this we are not honestly being fair to a great many other young men who, quite properly, have been refused under' the kind of rules which I have outlined. However, if it is any help to my hon. Friend, I will undertake that when this man goes into the R.A.F. he will have the chance to continue his studies so that his service there will not unduly delay his passing the examination.

Mr. M. Lindsay: I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend.

Adjourned accordingly at nine minutes to Twelve o'clock.